Ammo stockpiles

[WallShadow]

And ALL of her guns are functional. I volunteered to help to National Guard test her guns after the rebuild. The "hull section" in the museum is, IN FACT, the handiwork of Niagra's guns. She is also FULL Coast Guard certified for open water. She would be a powerful Naval unit but her habitability simply SUCKS. as primitive as camping. I still wouldn't mess with ANY of the 20 black powder cannon in the Museum's possession.

Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

[swaghauler]

Perhaps, but she would make a great pattern, and her plan might be scaled up to a sloop,perhaps armed with Davis guns or recoilless rifles, if black powder gun tubes are not available.

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

[.45cultist]

I'm with Leg on this one. During WWII, the U.S. Army, despite the U.S.A. having a much higher manufacturing capacity than it does currently (or during the 1980s or '90s, for that matter), experienced several ammunition shortages during its campaigns in the ETO. Mostly, these were related to transportation issues, but I don't see a much rosier picture in a WWIII situation. I just don't think the U.S., c.1997, would have had the ammunition manufacturing capacity to supply active fronts in Europe, Asia, the Middle East, and in CONUS, not to mention its allies.

I have a book, "The Ammunition Encyclopedia", that has the 2011 amount of commercial and arsenal ammo in units of millions of rounds. The U.S. at 85% capacity was 3,400 units. The Russian Fed, China were at 2,200 units. For T2K, the disruption of trade and transport will kill this more than nukes. For a Biohazard or zombie scenario, my PC's can check out Lake City. The culled but SAAMI spec ammo alone would keep dozens of enclaves well supplied.

[bobcat]

there isn't much modern NATO ammo in them but is anyone going to try to calculate the old CD stockpiles of WW2 surplus ammo/weapons most of these would probably be lost to time but when everyone else is using worn out M16's and tired reloaded brass, it would easily tip the balance in favor of whoever dug up a bunker filled with boxes of M1 rifles, M1 carbines, Grease guns, BARs, M2 .50's and enough ammo for them to stage a major offensive.

[.45cultist]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

[WallShadow]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

Not only amounts, but locations and reasons for their locations, as well as who would have known/had access to them Pleeeeease

[.45cultist]

Not only amounts, but locations and reasons for their locations, as well as who would have known/had access to them Pleeeeease

I do remember that, NYC, in among all the tunnels. I think most East Coast cities had extensive WWII surplus stockpiles. Since this was during the Clinton era, the stockpiles were scrapped. Using "Armies of the Night", one could put it in a "Dement" nest.

[CDAT]

I know a guy who was dismantling those caches during Clinton's tenure. I'll ask for rough amounts.

I can not speak for any specific caches, but I know one of the jobs that we had as EOD was to dispose of unserviceable munitions, they gave us lots of stuff that we no longer had a weapons platform to use for our training, and when we had time we would dispose of other stuff as well. Things like Navy 8" to 16" shells, Army 105mm tank rounds, and 4.2" mortar bombs, they also brought out truck loads of small arms for us to burn. It was delivered to us as unserviceable, but they did not say why or where it came from. So it is your best guess where it came from.

PS - This was during the Bush II, and Obama years so in TW2000 time there would still be stuff left, as we were still getting rid of it 12+ years latter.

[WallShadow]

I do remember that, NYC, in among all the tunnels. I think most East Coast cities had extensive WWII surplus stockpiles. Since this was during the Clinton era, the stockpiles were scrapped. Using "Armies of the Night", one could put it in a "Dement" nest.

As in "Did that big ugly "dement" really have a war-club made out of a BAR, or was I hallucinating"

[aspqrz]

No need for this. Just go to BoatTrader.com and do a search for sailboats and sailing Catamarans in the 40 foot to 150-foot range. There are THOUSANDS of them in Aisa, The Mediterranean, The Carribean, Europe, and both North and South America.

These boats have modern engines, electronics, water desalinization (on larger boats), and are actually very comfortable to live aboard. Even the smaller 26ft to 40ft models can withstand around 250 kg of weapons mountings and much larger boats could mount weights of up to 2 tons. They are every bit as durable as wooden boats and most sailboats under 30ft are trailerable with a typical pickup.

Do a google search for them on the manufacturer's websites and you can even find deck plans to use in your games.

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here

Phil

[swaghauler]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here

Phil

No one is going to be putting anything larger than a manually powered 20mm on any sailboat and the deck will easily withstand the recoil of a weapon like this (many Navy patrol boats are RIBS...fiberglass inner hulls with rubberized outer "inflation rings" and they mount similar weaponry). Most pirates using the readily available "private sector" sailing fleet are going to be limited to boats in the 35ft to 60ft range as these are the most common. These vessels will have basically unlimited endurance but will only accommodate 6 people comfortably. Small arms will be the predominate weapon type simply based on space and availability. Large pirate groups will probably "flotilla" (form fleets) in multiple boats and maneuver as "squadrons" in battle. The basic catamaran (my first choice) would also have the advantage of a shoal draft, allowing cats to "run into or through" the shallows while deeper draft monohulls would have to go around most shoals. Cats also have more storage space on board the vessel.

Many of the larger "commercial" fishing vessels will suffer the exact same fate as "commercial shipping," ie being grounded for lack of fuel. These vessels could mount smaller AT or larger AA guns but there wouldn't enough fuel to use them. A typical fishing vessel will use about 1 liter per kilometer traveled. That's a conservative estimate too. Any larger vessel in use will probably be used as a "mothership" and send out smaller RIBS or sailboats as an "attack force," in order to both preserve the larger vessel and because most larger vessels lack the speed to run down even a small sailboat.

Antique ships like the Brig Niagra being mentioned above DO NOT MOUNT their armament. The cannon can roll back upon firing and use "stop lines" made of heavy bull rope to arrest their movement. Those ships would be a powerful asset to a government due to their firepower (which is easily resupplied by any chemist) and independence from fossil fuels. These ships are rare, however.

[CDAT]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here

Phil

No idea about ships/boats, but in 03 we welded mounts for our heavy weapons onto our dump trucks, also had home made steel boxes that we put in the back of the HUMMVE's with posts to mount the heavy weapons. On the dump trucks it worked fine for any of the heavy weapons we had (M2HB, Mk. 19, and/or M240B) on the HUMMVE's the .50 was a bit scary they never broke or even bent but the did shake all over the place. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel was, but I am guessing it was mild. It was just stuff we found around and used.

[aspqrz]

No idea about ships/boats, but in 03 we welded mounts for our heavy weapons onto our dump trucks, also had home made steel boxes that we put in the back of the HUMMVE's with posts to mount the heavy weapons. On the dump trucks it worked fine for any of the heavy weapons we had (M2HB, Mk. 19, and/or M240B) on the HUMMVE's the .50 was a bit scary they never broke or even bent but the did shake all over the place. I have no idea what the hardness of the steel was, but I am guessing it was mild. It was just stuff we found around and used.

I do know, however, that Armoured Cars (the sort used to collect/carry Cash from/to Banks etc.), even with beefed up suspension, have a drastically reduced service life compared to the base model truck or van they are based on - nothing about their chassis (heck, do they even have a chassis these days), engine, diff/gear box etc. is designed to carry that extra weight and it evidently shows.

For Dump Trucks, sure, no probs ... they're build to haul extra weight anyway. For Humvees, well, it would depend on whether any additional armour or weapons overload the frame etc.

For Technicals and other converted, but basically civilian, vehicles - same problems as the commercial 'Armoured Cars', I would guess.

Phil

[aspqrz]

No one is going to be putting anything larger than a manually powered 20mm on any sailboat and the deck will easily withstand the recoil of a weapon like this (many Navy patrol boats are RIBS...fiberglass inner hulls with rubberized outer "inflation rings" and they mount similar weaponry).

I was referring to the OP who opined that the larger craft (he mentioned ones up to 150') could mount weaponry up to a couple of tons.

Sure, if it's all in the form of field or pintle mount 20mms ... heck, probably even 25mms ... but no way will they mount a single weapon of that weight (or even two of half that weight) without the problem noted ... unless someone knows something neither of us seem to

(Aside: Maybe they could mount Harpoon or similar Missile Boxes ... not much recoil on them, presumable ... as long as there's some way of minimising any effect from the rocket exhaust. But at the point where you're desperate enough to be using these sorts of civvie craft, what's the chance of any Harpoons being still around ... given that, even during the Cold War, my understanding is that there were never enough missiles for each available launcher/platform to carry one apiece at the same time, never mind reloads).

Phil

[dragoon500ly]

They can take the weight, sure, but can they take the stress of the weapons actually being fired ... now, this is from something in Alistair Maclean's 'The Golden Rendevous' so it may not be entirely correct, but I would expect it's not complete BS ... in that there are comments to the effect that the pirates are mounting something almost equivalent to a 3.7" gun in the Merchie ... and the First Officer thinks/comments that they would be lucky to get off more than a couple of shots before the deck plates buckled, rendering the mount (and the weapon) useless.

Now, this is from memory, and its more than 25 years since I read it last, and don't have a copy at hand any more, but I also STR that there was a comment to the effect that some Merchant Shipping Companies were paid (or subsidised) by HMG to put in reinforced hull sections on their ships so they could take heavier guns in an emergency ... I suspect that's no longer the case, and probably wouldn't have been by TW2K.

However, I would strongly suspect the bit about ruining the deck plating would still be true ... and how many people would know that in advance

Any Navy/Merchant Navy/Coast Guard types have any inputs here

Phil

British built merchant hulls up to the late 50s were required to have reinforced platforms, fore and aft to take up to 4-inch (102mm), this included both thicker deck plates as well as the necessary reinforcing braces to absorb the recoil. The deck plates were pre-drilled to accept various gun carriages, allowing for a variety of different marks to be installed. I have heard that this practice was continued into the 70s, built I have not been able to confirm this.