Possible Module Followups

[Olefin]

actually I was going to move some of what I said to that other thread

Raellus - I forgot where is the thread that was discussing HW specifically - you are right that that belongs there

FYI one of the things I am talking about as to contradiction

HW Page 44 -MilGov was unable to mount an offensive in 1999 in Texas

Red Star Lone Star - page 42 - A US counteroffensive in 1999 failed

US Army Vehicle Guide - 95th Infantry Division participated in the 5th Army's drive to clear Texas of marauders and paramilitary bands. Following the defeat of the 49th Armored Division by Soviet Division Cuba the 95th fought rearguard actions to cover the withdrawal of 90th Corps into Oklahoma.

49th Armored Division spearheaded the same drive and suffered heavy vehicle losses when counterattacked by Soviet Division Cuba. The School Brigade was attached to the 49th for the offensive.

Thus you have both the US Army Vehicle Guide and Red Star Lone Star stating that the US Army clearly conducted an offensive into Texas in 1999 - and HW contradicts it by saying there was no offensive.

Second

Airlords of the Ozarks - the adventure doesnt even start until the end of February/early March of 2001 - you have to allow time to get in there, do the adventure, find out what is going on and then report back to MilGov - but according to HW MilGov is already attacking into the Ozarks in March and taking massive casualties - to the point that the 85th is merged with the 197th by March - so the timelines dont agree - according to HW by April 2001 they are mopping up NA in Arkansas and Missouri after a long fight - but according to Ozarks that fight couldnt even have begun yet until late March to early April at the earliest

Allegheny Uprising - the govt in Harrisburg is still intact but has no influence on the western part of the states - and the farmland in the center of the state is said to be fertile - also the adventure itself can be set anytime after Dec 2000 - but it specifically says you can have characters play Ozarks first - which means that the earliest you could get those characters there given the distance would be mid- April to mid May of 2001 - according to HW that area was already seeing the effects of the drought - but there is no mention of that in Allegheny Uprising - just a short food situation around Pittsburgh - also the whole reason Caldwell wants to recover the cache's is to regain CivGov control over all of Maryland and Western PA - yet in HW by that time frame he is already in the process of starting the evacuation

entry from Uprising says that it could start as late as the summer of 2001 - by which time Caldwell according to HW is already evacuating the area

Depending on the background of the ongoing campaign, some referees may prefer to begin the scenario with the player characters somewhere along the Mississippi or Ohio Rivers. An
adventure group which has recently completed the module Airlords of the Ozarks may begin in Memphis, Tennessee, which is currently held by the 197th Infantry Brigade (Mechanized),
and make their way by barge or river tug up the Mississippi and Ohio Rivers to Pittsburgh. In the summer of 2001, this would be a long and difficult journey, made dangerous by the marauder
and pirate bands which infest the river valley regions and prey on inland waterway commerce. The trek could easily be spun out into a long campaign in its own right.

HW PA - no mention at all of any central government in PA or of any attempts to recover any of the other caches mentioned in Allegheny Uprising - and the five Bradley's recovered in the cache by the 228th are not mentioned at all in that units description - and those fully operational Bradleys would be very powerful vehicles indeed in 2001

Soviet Vehicle Guide - 41st and 14th Soviet Motor Rifle Divisions have changed sides and are now friendly to NATO and are fighting on MilGov's side

HW - no mention at all of either unit in Alaska or of what happened to those units - and the 41st had nearly 4000 men and 4 tanks - so what happened to the 41st

Ok so as promised there is part of what I meant by contradictions in HW to earlier canon - and as Baretta used to say "thats the name of that tune" - any other posts about HW I will put up on the other thread Raellus once you send me the link - and as for new canon releases I am working on several things now and will work with Marc to see what is ok with and what isnt

[Olefin]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

[The Dark]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.

[Adm.Lee]

FYI was looking at some of the nuclear attacks in the game - GDW must have not had all their research up to date - the nuclear attack at Sugar Creek, MO at the refinery makes no sense - it closed in 1982, long before they wrote the game

Well who says the Soviets' intelligence was always perfect

[Olefin]

There was a bulk storage unit still in use with 1,249,867 barrels capacity, and the refinery was progressively demolished over the course of the 1980s, with some structures (other than the tanks) surviving into 1989.

HW was written in 1988 - have a feeling Loren was using an old encyclopedia when he put the list together - i.e. you leave Robinson intact but nuke some storage tanks and a demolished refinery with a .5Mt nuke

Thats one reason also to argue for a rewrite of HW and other modules to bring things up to date - it allows corrections to some details and also to add some new stuff as well that would have changed

Prime example would be Reset - great plot idea in 1985 - looking back now and remembering what we had for computers and other devices by 1997 its definitely an anachronism - or for that matter the fact the the Soviets didnt hit Silicon Valley at all or other centers of computer development - because they were in their infancy when the game was written

in "real life" a 1997 target list would have taken places like Apple and Microsoft for sure as an example of how you could update HW

And I know a lot of gamers who after years of suffering at the hands of Bill Gates would probably love to read how he got nuked big time

And Admiral Lee - that is an interesting point you make as well - but Russian intelligence officers wouldnt have missed something as obvious as a demolished refinery -

[Draq]

It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.

[Cdnwolf]

It's hard to deny that the game needs some polishing, and refinement. As monumental a task as it would be, this fine group of people is more than capable of coming up with a 'v1.2' if you will. Collect all the data from the books considered 'least problematic', tidy them up, then take the inconsistent and controversial material, and change it around to make it fit while trying to keep from getting too far out of whack, then go back and double check the 'stable' material, all while using common sense and retrospect to keep true to the game we all know and love. 'reset' is always been a bit of a hangup for me, given what I know about how computers work, especially in the 90's. But everything else about that mission/story arc I absolutely love.

That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.

[Rainbow Six]

That's what I have been saying for years. We are now the experts on the game. Why not tweek it ourselves and make an unofficial re-write. Majority rules by vote on controversial parts of the new history.

There's no need to get involved in voting, which is unlikely to do much other than cause divisions - if people want to write unofficial and alternative material there's absolutely nothing stopping them. I speak from experience. I didn't like the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom so I wrote my own. Granted, it took me over six years, but it's done (and is available for free here).

http://www.twilight2000files.com/article01.html

To me it's pretty simple - if people like the material others put forward they can use it, if they don't they can ignore it.

[mpipes]

I agree. I added whole new American Divisions (4th Armored (Light)), 2nd Cavalry, 11th Airborne, 17th Airborne, 12th Infantry, 15th Infantry....). Had a lot more available armor (hampered by fuel and maintenance problems). And other changes large and small. I tweaked the adventures, articles, and guides ad nauseum. If you want everything to track canon, more power to you. You want to tweak things so much that it bears no relation to canon, good for you. Everybody has there own way to approach this.

But as has been pointed out, there were a lot of inconsistencies in the modules. I liked the V2.2 timeline the best! And changed up the German history to match.

Someday, I will share my timeline, but I still a tweaking it!

[Olefin]

and thats the difference between me writing new canon modules and sourcebooks versus writing fan canon that isnt going to be official - when I released the East Africa Sourcebook officially as a GDW product it became canon - so I cant just ignore previous canon as I could with, for instance, the Olefin universe timeline that I did for quite a while (which included my GM changing the Last Submarine to have the sub use nukes on Ploesti as he did when we played the game back in the 80's)

I did create new formations - but most of them were ones that Frank had in his notes he posted here about what would have been in his Kenya module if he had released it - with my own touches like bringing the 2nd Armored to Africa (since after Omega there are zero canon mentions of that division it allowed me to stay in canon with that change - whereas if the canon had mentioned them in Iran or Virginia in April of 2001 then I wouldnt have been able to do that) and the full detailing of the Kenyan, Rwandan and LRA Orbats along with detailing the French units in Eastern Africa (many of which had already been mentioned in the RDF)

[Olefin]

FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates

Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest

so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country

and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed

or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek

here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before

[Draq]

Glorious.

[The Dark]

I'm on board with mpipes, that each person can adapt existing sources however they wish for their own campaign. Everything is tilting at windmills as far as I'm concerned, and the vitriol has rapidly gone from being pointless to being actively annoying.

[ArmySGT.]

FYI one way you could look at a rewrite of HW would be from the information we now have that show that the drought as depicted could not have happened - for one reason because of the effect of the La Nina that occurred from 1998-2001 which increased snowfall across the US - meaning that the cold winter without snowfall that HW and Kidnapped promulgated could not have occurred during those years due to the effects of the La Nina - the effects of the war, if anything would have added to the snow fall during those years due to increase of particulates

Completely irrelevant. The events or weather occurring in our reality have absolutely no bearing on the fictional T2K universe. Using this justification there in no war and the T2K timeline has been invalidated by the collapse of the Soviet Union on 9 November 1989.

The weather in T2K is not ours here now or in 98-01.

Also you would have had to change the Pacific Jet Stream in the Pacific itself to have affected the La Nina - and most of the nukes were in the US and Europe and China in the Northern Hemisphere - meaning that they would have had almost no effect on La Nina - meaning that most of the US west of the Mississippi would have had considerable snowfall and thus the winter wheat crop would have the snow cover it needed and the water run off needed for the spring planting

Could you still have the drought in the Southeast and the Mid-Atlantic areas - yes that is a possibility so HW in the those areas could have run its course as written - but not in the West and upper Midwest

No one is completely sure what the effect of nuclear might be. Though in the T2K timeline the exchange is in measured doses (tit for tat) that doesn't prelude a cumulative effect compounded by unstoppable forest fires rampaging across the U.S. national forests and the Soviet taiga.

That does serve to mean cooler northern temperatures and Arctic are is dry air. The currents along the U.S. west shores is cold southern flows until past San Fransisco. The hot loop passes up around Hawaii then loops baxk around Hawaii and turns south again.

I grew up in Oregon. Tourists drown going to paddle board in the surf off the Oregon coast due to hypothermia in the 45F waters in August. Locals wear wet suits to play in the surf.

so is there an argument for an updated canon that contains the effects of the drought to those areas and still makes for huge disruptions of the population leaving those areas - yes - and that kind of effect would still leave much of HW intact as to those areas while making the overall effect on the US much less - still a major disruption and still having an effect on the population - but not one that would basically result in the US dying for good as a country

So Let it die then Anyone see the Romans complaining

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K.

and again Loren when he wrote the modules would not have had that information or the weather models we have today - so the question is not a case of possible rewrites due to the modules being wrong - its more a question of retconning them to make them more accurate for the years involved in the modules to bring a higher level of accuracy and story telling to what is now events that occurred in the past of "real life" whereas when they were written they were attempts at saying where the future was headed

Again irrelevant. The events, i.e. the weather, of our reality have nothing to do with the fictional universe of T2K. Whether Loren had the information or not means nothing.

or to look at it another way - look at what they did to retcon Star Trek when they did the alternate future - obviously they had to eliminate the anachronisms that would have occurred from just reshooting Star Trek with no changes - thus the updates to the computer systems, communicators, phasers, etc. - because in many ways we caught up with Star Trek

I am assuming the Star Trek films produed by J.J. Abrams The Abramsverse is not an alternate future, it is an alternate universe as well. A timeline that came into existence when the Romulan vessels crossed over through a black hole.

If your speaking of Star Trek Enterprise.... That is probably the reason for the low fan acceptance and cancellation after five seasons. The modern displays and other systems where not "The Old Show" Star Trek.

here any possible retcon if it occurred (not rewrite per se but retcon to bring real world events including weather effects, personalities, films, music, etc. into the game to make it more accurate) would be as improvements for both playability and increased reality

i.e. an example would be playing Krakow and having players mention that they had seen Schlinder's List and thus had some familiarity with the city - a movie that didnt come out till 1993 and whose story was almost completely unknown when the module was written in the 80's

or having a survivor in the US mention that seeing the aftermath of Washington DC getting nuked was nothing like they depicted in the nuking of Buenos Aires in Starship Troopers - which was released only a few weeks before the TDM in the timeline - or Independence Day - which was released the year before

This is all some minutiae that anyone would find unlikely to happen in a regular role play session. Players are operating at village level politics, and if you have them operating at the macro scale; then those become npcs, and your players roll up new characters.

[Olefin]

"So Let it die then Anyone see the Romans complaining

The U.S. is destroyed. Knocked down to a 3rd world minor power after a nuclear exchange and five years (ten years) of global war. Probably not even 50 states any longer or not a very cooperative Union at that either. There is two competing governments and probably many States accepting the legitimacy of either and not cooperating with either to boot.

There is no Law in the Universe that demands a fully restored U.S.A super power after the events of T2K. "

Actually there is such a law - its called 2300AD that states the US rose again as a major power both on Earth and in space.

And the last I heard 2300AD is supposed to be the future of the Twilight 2000 canon.

Thus in this particular universe that is the law that states it.

And Loren's HW has the US so devastated that the canon of 2300AD cannot come to pass.

As I pointed out to Marc either 2300AD is right or HW is right - you cant have both - not with the loss of that much of the US population and the US Army falling apart basically outside of Colorado and Sacramento.