The 40th Infantry Division

[Olefin]

I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance

[Raellus]

Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead

[Enfield]

I would be thinking that he would be looking to get live rounds as soon as the war began if he didnt before - Littlefield loved those tanks and vehicles - and there is no way he would have given them up without a fight - and given the amount of money and connections he had getting shells to arm the tanks he had (and no I dont mean he gets six full ammo loads for them I mean enough to maybe fill the racks once or so) with live barrels makes a hell of a lot of sense - especially after the TDM as things got very down and dirty

Again keep in mind this is a man who spent literally hundreds of thousands of dollars to get parts and vehicles per year. Hell he could have even gotten them in trade after the TDM - oh you need a place to repair that M60 - well I have all the parts and mechanics you need for sure - that will cost you a dozen shells or two dozen shells

And frankly those arguments about old tanks versus modern ones - if MilGov is using engineering vehicles with demo guns as tanks I would much rather have an actual tank with an actual gun designed to take on tanks any day than a gun that wasnt designed to take on tanks - plus a lot of the vehicles he had were perfectly good APC's and recon vehicles that only needed a 50 cal and off they go - like the Ferret he had for instance

How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though

[Olefin]

for 50 cal there would be lots of ammo - it was very common - ditto 90mm ammo for the M47 or ammo for the M60 or the Centurion that had the same gun as the M1 - and by that I mean more than enough ammo to fill their racks at least once

the big question is the M103 and the Conqueror - they both used the same cannon - but if there is anywhere that might have ammo its actually CA - the last group to operate the M103 were the USMC and they grouped about half of what they had at Barstow along with the ammo - so if there are any shells still sitting in a depot they would be at Barstow in the USMC warehouses - they might need new propellant charges after that long in storage but any solid shot still in storage should work just fine

as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there

[rcaf_777]

How much ammunition is likely to be available for, for instance, a Sherman or a vehicle with a .30 cal machinegun on it though

While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

[ArmySGT.]

ARE YOU COMPLETELY NUTS!!!!!

Do you honestly think ATF is going to be in business as of 12/1/1997 ATF is going to be embedded in fallout scattered all over the Atlantic and Europe.

Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.

[ArmySGT.]

And if they are using CEV's as tanks - I think they would take an old M60A1 over that

The M728 CEV
is used in the assault AS A TANK. These are used to breach obstacles like berms or with mine plow to get units through a defensive mine belt. All the while under enemy fire. The armor isn't enough by 2018 and that is why (even with ERA) this is replaced by the Grizzly.

While the 165mm demo gun isn't meant for other tanks that is what the supporting arms like artillery is for. NOTHING operates alone (except in RPGs).

[ArmySGT.]

Do you think the government would have requisitioned the tanks from Littlefield's collections that it deemed useful If he loved them so much, do you think he'd lawyer up or otherwise tried to avoid turning them over Or, do you think he would have volunteered their use to the military, first/instead

Even the State itself........ have to protect the Governor, Capitol, and the Treasury. That is where I would see the State drawing off all the wheeled APCs.

Wheeled APCs have parts commonality with 2.5ton and 5ton trucks with commercial engines or transmissions.

[ArmySGT.]

as for govt requisitioning the tanks - the question would be would if the right people are still around who know the tanks have live barrels - they would be registered destructive devices - but the local ATF might be long gone - meaning that local commanders may just think they are typical museum tanks - i.e. with demil barrels and inactive fire control systems

meaning they may not even know what he has there

The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.

[ArmySGT.]

While not the best source

The popularity of the M1 Carbine for collecting, sporting, and re-enactment use has resulted in continued civilian popularity of the .30 Carbine cartridge. For hunting, it is considered a small/medium-game cartridge, of marginal power for deer-size game. Even in long-barreled carbines, military-style full metal jacket projectiles do not expand as easily as soft or hollow point. In addition, the high sectional density of the projectile causes the bullet to overpenetrate. Soft-point and hollowpoint cartridges are considered to be more effective for hunting and self-defense, and are offered by Winchester, Remington UMC, Federal Cartridge, and Hornady ammunition manufacturers. With millions of surplus M1 Carbines still owned by civilians, the round continues to be used for these purposes into the present day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30_Carbine

it is marginally popular in some other firearms as pest control and personal protection..... Similar effects to a .357 magnum.

People complain about the FMJ, but gush about the HP ammo. I missed my opportunity to get a carbine in 2007 for $150 and sort of regret it.

[DocFirefly]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

[Olefin]

The State Highway Patrol, National Guard, Air National Guard, California Dept of the Military, Cal EPA, Cal Bureau of Firearms.

Federal Bureau of Investigations, Secret Service, U.S. Marshals, ATFE, and the EPA.

Explosives and military equipment puts you high on peoples list of attention getters.

And you have non-functioning computers and a country under nuclear attack during WWIII - meaning those people have a lot more on their hands than remembering stuff about a bunch of tanks in the middle of nowhere - I know something about how bureaucracy's work - and with the break down of communications and computers he and his tanks would be forgotten pretty quickly

about the only possible people who might remember his tanks would be people who had actually seen his collection before the war - which back then would be a relatively small group of people - it really wasnt famous yet - at most you are talking a handful of people who might remember what he has if at all

and keep in mind that CA has the second biggest collection of registered destructive devices that there is in the country which makes it even more likely that he gets forgotten or overlooked

especially with the combined punch of what happened to Los Angeles and then the Mexican invasion

[Olefin]

What if someone PLANNED to use the collection against enemies
What if Littlefield, and some friends (Local Base commander, One or More high level state/federal politicians and several other friends) came to the realization that things could get bad, and that the collection would give the California State government a little bit of an edge during civil unrest. Heck, lets say some of these folks even thought that they could be "reinforcements" if the Soviets ever came through Washington state (not all powerful men are rational). So for a period of time before the TDM they pool their resources and influence to start making the collection ready for service. They start commissioning sympathetic machinists (or a "friend" with a machine shop orders their employees to) start making critical parts. State law enforcement looks the other way as munitions are located or created. Enthusiast and greybeards are recruited for crews and trainers. Until that day when the 40th ID reforms and this adhoc "wannabe" unit shows up for duty.
It almost sounds like the plot to a sitcom, but people take initiative all the time on endeavors. Think of Zouve units in the ACW, or the Lincoln Brigade. It's no more unrealistic in this fantasyverse than an entire infantry Brigade formed around Anti-Aircraft Vehicles. Maybe part of cannon could be this quixotic adventure.

I could see that for sure - look at Kenya and the volunteer unit of WWII re-enactors and vehicle collectors that got sent there - given that unit being deployed by MilGov I have a feeling they would welcome Littlefield's 1st Volunteers or whatever you might want to call them with open arms - or make an arrangement with him to help guard his collection in exchange for getting their vehicles repaired and put back into functional status

Most likely that shop of his is the only functional tank repair facility left in the whole state - complete with tools, welding equipment, you name it all specifically designed to repair and fix military equipment - this isnt a truck shop we are talking about - these are men and equipment that could take a rusting piece of junk and turn it back into a functional tank

[Olefin]

Before the war.

Everything would have to be bought and shipped before the war began in a functioning economy for this to happen.

After the war begins anyone the would be able to make ammo is going to be shanghaied for NATO STANAG calibers solely and under government controls.

Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure

[ArmySGT.]

Actually the best time for him to get his shells would be after the war started - lots of money flowing, lots of people looking to make money and all kinds of opportunities to get stuff. And he knew exactly who to talk to in order to get all kinds of things that he needed to get those tanks back up to spec. And remember per the canon this is a world where by 2000 if you have the gold you can buy just about anything

But frankly ArmySgt I doubt that anything I or anyone else has to say will convince you - and as always you can be free to use whatever you like in your own game - Littlefields Collection will be part of mine - and part of what I will be writing about for sure as well - will make a great addition to a module for sure

After the War begins

The stresses credibility even further. The World is a war. International Banks are not allowed to transfer funds between hostiles. The undersea cables are cut or compromised. Economies are under war provisions and controls. International travel is strangled to nothing, if there was even fuels to move planes or ships.

I will accept a lot of things if there is reasonable and plausible explanations for their existence. While I would put some, but very little of the Littlefield Collection into a game, any reasonable adult with any military training would take only what really would be effective and not just get good troops killed using the thing.

The 1970s (and newer) American armor sure. The WW2 not at all.
The items that are not American and you have an Ally, ship it to them. The Brit tanks would be better given to Canada or shipped to Allies in Korea for that matter.

Equipment has to be maintained and operated by troops well trained in the use and maintenance of that equipment or it is just a liability not an asset.