Why no China?

[shrike6]

Actually if any of the Chinese forces would be intact it might be the ones along the Vietnamese border - they are ones that the Soviets would be highly unlikely to attack with nukes - mainly because they would be no threat to them - thus a warlord trying to attack Vietnam (as Leg said maybe in 2002-2003) that is the commander of those forces could be very plausible

I dont know that I buy the Vietnamese front being quiet. I mean the Cam Rahn Bay Naval Bay could be a major thorn in the side of the Chinese war effort. With the potental to devastate oil from the Middle East or at least making it take longer to arrive in Chinese ports. Now I am not saying the Chinese would go nuclear on it but I cant believe they didnt try to imtimidate the Vietnamese by some kind of border action or try to strike the base in some way.

[Legbreaker]

Who's to say Vietnam was actively hostile to China
I doubt they'd be anything approaching allies, but with the west obviously supporting China with weapons, ammo, etc they're not about to pick a fight are they

[shrike6]

Who's to say Vietnam was actively hostile to China
I doubt they'd be anything approaching allies, but with the west obviously supporting China with weapons, ammo, etc they're not about to pick a fight are they

Whose to say they weren't The Vietnamese have defeated the West before. The Soviets are close Allies and have a military base there. China has been an enemy in the past during the modern era. Going back as far as the Vietnamese kicking the Khmer Rouge out of Cambodia and including various territorial disputes along their border and including the Spratley and Paracel Islands. Its hard for me to believe that they are not going to take advantage of China being distracted by the USSR in some way.

Let alone that China gets it oil from two places at this time USSR and via the Strait of Malacca. For the Soviets to not try to take advantage of that situation and at least try to disrupt the flow is short sighted at the least especially given the piracy that happens in the area on a normal basis. How long it would stay disrupted is another question but it seems like a big strategic oversight to me.

[RN7]

The status of Vietnam depends on if your playing V.1 or V.2.

In V.1 Vietnam was allied to the Soviet Union and at war with China.

From Soviet Vehicle Guide.

1st Indochinese Front
128th Air Assault Brigade
28th Soviet Army
50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division
101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division
104th Motorised Rifle Division

The 128th Air Assault Brigade (Hanoi, Vietnam): A pre-war a Category I units attached to the Central Asian MD, the 128th was sent to Vietnam as part of a force to protect the naval facilities in 1997. The 128th has seen little action, suffering mainly from a lack of fuel and desertion.

50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division (Haiphong, Vietnam). A Category III MR Divisions from the Byelorussian MD activated in late 1995. Sent to Vietnam in mid-1996 to protect naval assets at Haiphong, and has been engaged against the Chinese and other armed bands since.

101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division (Hanoi, Vietnam). A Category I MR Divisions from the Byelorussian MD. Sent to Vietnam at the start of the war with China in order to help the Vietnamese Army protect its northern borders. This units fought a series of sharp engagements with the Chinese before the fall of China.

104th Motorised Rifle Division (Vietnam): A mobilisation only division raised in the Kiev MD in late 1996. It was sent to Vietnam as a reinforcement as the units there became involved with fighting with the Chinese.


In V.2 Vietnam was not allied with the Soviet Union.

There is no mention of Soviet forces in Vietnam in V.2 Soviet Combat Vehicle Handbook. The 1st Indochinese Front has become the 1st Japanese Front. The 128th Air Assault Brigade, 50th Guards Motorised Rifle Division, 101st Guards Motorised Rifle Division and 104th Motorised Rifle Division are now stationed in the Kurile Islands and Sakhalin Island.

Also from V.2 American Combat Vehicle Handbook. The US 2nd Infantry Division was stationed at Cam Ranh Bay, Republic of Vietnam from 1991 until 1996, when it was then transferred to Korea under command of the reconstituted 8th U.S. Army. So in V.2 communist Vietnam is now switched back to the South Vietnamese Republic of Vietnam and US forces are based in Vietnam up to at least the start of the Sino-Soviet War !!!!

[Legbreaker]

Well there you go then. Some pretty conclusive information there.

[Olefin]

The sourcebook I would be looking at would be more tuned to the V1 timeline versus the V2 - and the US being in Vietnam and the reunification of Korea in the V2 timeline really wasnt handled that well in V2 - it was like the whole China Russia war and the Korean front was treated more as just padding for the real action in Europe and North America and the Middle East

[shrike6]

The sourcebook I would be looking at would be more tuned to the V1 timeline versus the V2 - and the US being in Vietnam and the reunification of Korea in the V2 timeline really wasnt handled that well in V2 - it was like the whole China Russia war and the Korean front was treated more as just padding for the real action in Europe and North America and the Middle East

Can't argue with any of that, alot of east Asia seemed to be an afterthought with version 2.

[ChalkLine]

A few historical notes on the PLA;

1 - The PLA were poised to assault Taiwan in 1950. With the US-led UN intervention in Korea and the massing of troops on the China-Korea border those troops were converted from invasion formations to coastal defence formations.

2 - The troops used in Korea were in a large part former Nationalist troops 'cleansing their honour' (ie: dying to avoid reprisals to their families and home regions). This is important because the methods used by the PLA in Korea were an aberration; they actively wanted a high death rate in their own troops. Many troops used in the Chosin action were not issued shoes.
Attempting to use these 'human wave' attacks as a standard Chinese tactic is wrong and I kinda wish people would stop it when I see it in faction

[Olefin]

actually using a human wave attack as a distraction in desperation could possibly still be a tactic of theirs - but only if it was to have the Soviets concentrate everything they had on the wave and not realize they were about to get taken in the flank by tanks

[shrike6]

I suppose another way to supply Tanks to China would be to buy the various T-54/55s the Israelis have and ship them to China as well

[Legbreaker]

Something people seem to be missing is China is NOT an English speaking country, let alone reading.
Every last label on every piece of equipment would have to be changed before the Chinese could put it to use. (Some items such as small arms ammo shouldn't pose a problem though - bit hard to get confused with that...)
This small but vital detail may well prevent some items from being sent, and will certainly delay others. Add in training time and costs, as well as the manpower required just for qualified instructors who can speak the language, and it's an almost certainty the more technical items would be only in limited supply and use.
Yes, a LOT of material was sent to the USSR in WWII, but you really can't compare a Sherman or Matilda with even an M60A4 or Chieftain - the newer stuff (even though not latest generation) is a whole magnitude of complexity greater.

[Olefin]

sending Soviet stuff that is in other countries is actually a pretty good idea - i.e. a T-54/55 is basically the same tank as the Chinese have - pretty easy to print up and stick labels over the Russian characters - same with the T-62 which they captured several examples of back during the late 60's

Also China has a lot of people who speak English as well as Chinese and can read and speak both languages - they happen to live in Hong Kong - so that is a great source for the Chinese to get people to both translate manuals and for providing translation for training

[Legbreaker]

I've been trying to think of reasons why Israel would not sell T-55s, etc to China and honestly I can't really think of too many besides them perhaps wanting to keep them for their own forces. That said, I understand they've got quite a few anyway and have been gradually replacing them with better machines, refurbishing and flogging the old stuff off to Africa or whoever stumps up the cash.
Pretty sure there's no mention anywhere in the books of them supplying anyone throughout the war(s), but also hasn't been ruled out.

[RN7]

I've been trying to think of reasons why Israel would not sell T-55s, etc to China and honestly I can't really think of too many besides them perhaps wanting to keep them for their own forces. That said, I understand they've got quite a few anyway and have been gradually replacing them with better machines, refurbishing and flogging the old stuff off to Africa or whoever stumps up the cash.
Pretty sure there's no mention anywhere in the books of them supplying anyone throughout the war(s), but also hasn't been ruled out.

Israel had links with China at this time despite the Arab and Soviet Bloc boycott of Israel. Israel sold technology to upgrade Chinese tanks and planes in the 1980s, and after Tiananmen Square led to Western military sanctions against China the Israelis became Chinas back door to western technology. Israel was ready to sell the Phalcon AWAC to China before the US forced Israel to cancel the deal. Israel also sold UAV technology to the Chinese and the Chengdu J-10 is also believed to have used technical information from the Israeli Lavi fighter project.

[Rainbow Six]

I visited the PRC a couple of times from Hong Kong about fifteen years ago. On each occasion our hosts were keen to give us a bit of a tour. One thing that always featured was a trip to a local school where we shown young kids (six, seven, eight years old) being taught English (this was in and around Guangzhou). They used to ask us questions to show off / practice their English whats your favourite football team / player was a common one. There were a helluva lot of Manchester United fans little beggars. I spent a while talking to one of their teachers he was a Canadian guy, probably in his early twenties, went round all of the local schools on a pushbike. I remember he said to me that he had just decided to oedrop off the grid so came to China and got a job TEFL.

Granted that was in the early 2000s but it wouldnt surprise me if there were enough English speakers to handle any translation needs that were required when it came to manuals.

Also China has a lot of people who speak English as well as Chinese and can read and speak both languages - they happen to live in Hong Kong - so that is a great source for the Chinese to get people to both translate manuals and for providing translation for training

Possibly, but until the handover the majority of them would be either BNO's (British Nationals Overseas) or BDTC's (British Dependent Territories Citizens) so any work they wished to carry out for the PRC would be entirely voluntary. As noted above though, I don't think getting translators would be a problem.