4th ed T2K

[Targan]

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

[Olefin]

Well, I don't know. I've been hearing hints of this "sneak peek" for a while now but I don't really know what to make of it. Call me overly cynical, but I'm always a bit leery of "I can't tell you anything about it, but trust me on this..." [secret knowledge] type hints and allegations stuff. And you yourself wrote,

And yes, I imagine that if enough KS backers chime in with constructive criticism, it might lead to some change. I mean, if a hundred people poke holes in the game world history, it might have more of an impact than when a select, mostly anonymous few did. Then again, you could be right and I could be wrong.

My point is, I don't see the point in bitching and moaning about something that isn't necessarily set in stone. I doubt it will do much good. I'd rather try to stimulate change through constructive means and official channels, than rant and rave about it on a fan site.

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the sneak peek and the Alpha as far as the players manual as it pertains to the war, the background, the timeline are basically the same - it was leaked material and the minute I saw it I was like oh crap - and the so called denials that I got werent worth the electrons that were used

[Olefin]

There's some merit in that. I think by this stage though, it will be what it will be.

On the plus side for me personally, I had very low expectations for it from the start, so it's not like I'm going to end up disappointed. And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

[Raellus]

And we have, what, 4 other T2K rules sets to choose from, and can pick and choose whatever groovy morsels do arrive in the new version for our own current and future campaigns.

If there aren't any changes to the v4 backstory, then I probably won't use it as is, but I like the way that you're looking at it, and that's probably how I'm going to look at it too.

We need to tell Tomas that this is unacceptable - and frankly people crowing about the "artwork" five minutes after it was out and not even reading the rules and the actual game background show that they werent serious potential players

Yes, but why would they listen to people ranting about "antifa Soviet fan-boys" either Seriously

I understand that you are frustrated that they didn't listen to you when you were a secret advisor or whatever (I'm really curious about that whole arrangement), but that doesn't mean that Tomas et al won't listen to the rest of us.

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[Louied]

There are often misconceptions about the TA's role in T2K. That may be because the original V1 British order of battle was a complete work of fiction in that it completely ignored the TA and appeared to have been written by someone who had zero knowledge of their role / structure (IRL the TA would have formed the bulk of the 2nd UK Division and would have also rounded out other Divisions in the same way that US National Guard Brigades rounded out Regular Divisions). Or it may be because at the end of the Cold War the TA's role changed so it can sometimes take a bit of digging to get to the Cold War period.

The TA in this period was split. Some units did have a home defence role, but others were tasked with reinforcing BAOR. LouieD is more of an authority on this than I am and can correct me if I'm wrong but off the top of my head, the split was something like 75% to BAOR vs 25% UK Home defence (both of those figures include support as well as combat units).

From memory there were something like 14 TA Infantry Battalions and 2/3 Light Recon Regiments (each equivalent to a Battalion and equipped with Land Rovers) allocated to home defence - roughly one per civil defence area plus a couple of spares. There would have probably also one Regular Brigade tasked to home defence, probably based in the London area and mostly made up of Guards Battalions. The TA have no training role - that would have been down to the Regular Army.

Also, there was an attempt to recreate the Home Guard in the early 1980's - it was called the Home Service Force, and numbered approx 5000 men in approx 50 Platoons across the UK at its peak.

As some of you know in the past I've spent many hours working on a realistic (and non canon) T2K timeline for the UK. I've read the new timeline (briefly) and the section on the UK. I find the idea of a Soviet invasion of the UK fanciful and will be ignoring it going forward but I do not think it's Alien Space Bats territory. If I really had to rationalise it I'd posit it the same way as Division Cuba in V1 - a Division sized unit (7th Guards Air Assault according to the UK write up) secures a toehold, HMG is unable to assemble the forces to kerb stomp them, and the Soviets end up securing a town (or maybe a County) - it's basically the Group of Soviet Forces England in the V1 SGUK on a larger scale.

Other than that, while I appreciate it's only a few paragraphs, I don't think they've done too bad a job with the UK setting. There's room for improvement for sure (even with no help from the mainland I rather doubt the IRA would be able to hold their own against the RUC and the UDR without overt military support from the Irish Republic) but it's certainly an improvement on the V1 Survivor's Guide to the UK (although that is admittedly a pretty low bar - at least they didn't have the Queen abdicating). The Cornish Independence angle is plausible.

Rainbow is spot on, the bulk (for instance 26 of the 40 TA Inf Bns had NATO commitments) of the TA would be going across the Channel on TTW. Plans were very detailed (I have even found documents in the NA showing that plans were being drawn up in the late 1980's to blow the Channel Tunnels which had just started being built !). My co-authors and myself are currently engaged in fleshing out UKLF, besides the 47 HSF Coys, there were 175 HD Res Coys, 14 TA Bns, and 17 Regular Bns committed to Home Defence. Not to mention the whole 7,000 plus UDR would be placed on active service in NI......

If anyone needs more detail I will start a new thread (and I'll try to be short....)

[mpipes]

I managed to look at the draft.

I am with Olefin on a lot of the criticisms. THE ART WORK IS AWSOME.....but....

The background does not look that bad to me. Very sparse on details, leaving to Referees to fill in the blanks. Not terrible, but not that great. A bit too Swedish centrist to my taste for PC generation. My biggest gripe is the complete ignoring of the Central European military. You need a bit of flavor for German, Danish, UK, Czech, and Slovak forces. Italy and Hungary would be a good idea as well. I much prefer the overall wider sweep of forces in the GDW versions. However, this may be planned for rectifying in later modules. At the very least, the background and character generation should include the afore mentioned militaries and a least some German and UK units mentioned (and maybe a few Pole, Slovak, and Czech units here and there). Also, who are the Soviet allies None

A lot of the rules look like crap to me with the entire underlying character attributes and skill ratings looking clunky not to mention weapon ratings and vehicle stats. Vehicle and weapons need to be expanded.

Say what you will about the GDW editions, but their attributes, skills, and rating are far more straightforward and intuitive. The rules need to stick to kilogram weights and meter weapon ranges, speeds, and movements.

UNFORGIVEABLE: The Swedish focus given the lack of anything on NATO or PACT forces/PCs etc. I understand why its there but really; exactly what are the chances of encountering Swedish Army troops (or equipment) in Central Europe versus any NATO or PACT forces (or any equipment) That just needs to be fixed.

ALSO MY EYES ARE BURNING!!!!
A RPD picture is shown for the PKM. That's like an entry for a lion and then showing a picture of a bobcat. I'm sorry, but that is just plain sloppy!!!

And the guys obviously don't know beans about hunting. You don't need to use a shotgun on grouse or any bird. It darn well makes things easier, but if you are good enough (and my uncle is) you can shoot grouse or ducks out of the sky with a rifle. On the other hand, they do know about grenade fishing; I tip my hat to that!!

<sigh>

[Lurken]

Soviets have zero allies.

Sweden has things vanishing. The entire government+parliament goes =POOOF= behind friendly lines when going somewhere else instead of their designated bunker shortly after the war begins.

An entire Mechanized division goes =POOF= in the woodland s of Smland one week after invasion. Zero traces of anyone from that division or anything from that division.

Gotland going =POOF=, as in no one knows what is going on there. Absolutely no one.

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

[Rainbow Six]

Also, Rainbow, my name is listed in the Playtesters. We were invited to give criticisms and suggestion. I can vet Leg, he was there too.

Thanks, but I think it was Raellus that was querying that side of things. Certainly wasnt me.

[mpipes]

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system

Character attributes

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2

[Legbreaker]

I focused more on the background. The rules gave me a headache just thinking about them.

[Lurken]

Lurken,

I certainly don't want to criticize the playtesters, but.....

Did you guys buy off on the weapon and vehicle rating system

Character attributes

These mechanics seem wildly messy to me and not intuitive at all, but I grew up in the old style D&D and SPI era, so maybe I am just damaged goods in a sense.

Does anybody think they are good Or an improvement over V 1 or 2.2

The system was done as it was. I did point out some bits that I found wonky. But didn't get listened to. The Weapons... I didn't even look there. Couldn't be arsed. I cared about the story. Because, you can play T2k with any system. It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

[Legbreaker]

It lives with the world and setting, not the rules.

Exactly right. There's many instances over the last nearly 4 decades T2K has existed where people have used alternate mechanics. The setting is the game.

What we have been presented with, that's not T2k when looked at from that perspective. Lurken and I did our best, but it seemed their minds were already made up. The overall situation was set in stone and all our comments and suggestions amounted to a few minor tweaks here and there. Fortunately we were able to talk them out of some of the REALLY bad ideas, but, as can be seen, by no means anything close to all.

It wasn't just the two of us though, there were others who will remain anonymous until they choose to speak up. Suffice to say the community did speak, but it seems our voices fell on, if not deaf ears, certainly ones hard of hearing.

[Rockwolf66]

It was far more than a sneak peek. We were encouraged to actively contribute and then our suggestions either ignored of given only the slightest attention. In some cases there were glaring issues raised and all that happened was changing of a word or two with the core problem remaining.

As someone who did see draft information, We did complain about the timeline and how pro-Soviet it was and got told that we were looking at "Outdated information" and that the finished project would not reflect "current politics in any way".

This is lies because President West is a warmongering Idiot who embodies multiple Leftist stereotypes of Republican Politicians.

As such I hope to get the game used as not to give them a dime for it.

[Silent Hunter UK]

How is West a warmonger He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

[Lurken]

He wasn't the guy who invaded Poland.

Perhaps not. But he is the one who launched nukes on Soviet forces after USSR didn't nuke Israel after they nuked NUAR.