v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[comped]

Yea, its just way too Sweden centric, and its gone from a world war to just a big regional war that only rages in Sweden and Poland and maybe the Czech Republic (at least till the nukes fly). Not believable in the slightest to ANYONE with a modicum of military knowledge.

FL's market is primarily Swedish-focused, so that's why we have Sweden show-horned in as a setting in the first place. Why it's so focused on the country. Because they have a base of fans which will buy the game because it's got their name on it and they can play in Sweden.

[pansarskott]

V1 - NATO sourcebook provides all rank info, weapons, other NATO countries
V2.2. has an entire section in it the details other countries, weapons, ranks, militaries, how to roll up characters etc..

Yes, in additional modules, not in the base game. The V4 is only the base game, and it has more info on other nationalities than V1 base game.

But I've never heard of a NATO Sourcebook. Only Vehicle Guide / Combat Vehicle guide, and they don't have that info.

RDF Sourcebook (1986) has info on US other than Army) and other countries. But that's two years after the original game.

Correct about V2, I didn't check that. Never got into playing it so I'll always check V1

[Olefin]

Yes, in additional modules, not in the base game. The V4 is only the base game, and it has more info on other nationalities than V1 base game.

But I've never heard of a NATO Sourcebook. Only Vehicle Guide / Combat Vehicle guide, and they don't have that info.

RDF Sourcebook (1986) has info on US other than Army) and other countries. But that's two years after the original game.

Correct about V2, I didn't check that. Never got into playing it so I'll always check V1

V1 NATO Vehicle Guide was published in 1989 so yes it was a few years after the original players guide for V1 - RDF had full info for the UK and French but you are right not for everyone

Still its a glaring error in the Alpha - and they were sold the rights to the game - thus they could have just copied literally the V2.2 section for the Alpha and said we will detail them out better in the official release - there is literally nothing in the Alpha about them

again this is a Swedish/Polish centric game - and the US info is lacking a lot - would have been very easy to detail what states had seceded from the US (how much effort does it take to type a list of States)

[Olefin]

FL's market is primarily Swedish-focused, so that's why we have Sweden show-horned in as a setting in the first place. Why it's so focused on the country. Because they have a base of fans which will buy the game because it's got their name on it and they can play in Sweden.

Supposedly they were long term players - if that is true then they knew that this is not a Euro centered games

V1 has modules/sourcebooks that take place in Iran/Iraq/Saudi Arabia, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Korea, United States, Mexico, UK, Grenada, Spain, Italy, Greece, Libya, Romania, Norway - and Challenge releases for adventures in Canada plus info on the Mexican Army

V2.2 adds Thailand and East Africa/Liberia to the list and at least one Challenge article set in Japan

Its very obvious that they either didnt study the original releases at all or ignored the fact that this is a world war

and all it would take is about a five minute look at the member base here to see how international the fan base is

So writing a T2K V4 for Sweden is frankly DUMB

[mpipes]

So writing a T2K V4 for Sweden is frankly DUMB

Yea. Just how many copies do they plan to sell in Sweden versus the rest of the world. And this won't sell to anyone here I am afraid.

Its supposed to be a WORLD WAR!!! Is that a hard concept for them to understand, because according to this backstory, it is a pure Central Europe tussle. Or is Sweden suppose to be the predominant center of the universe in their version

[Olefin]

I still dont get how they ignored the UK fan base with no UK characters or ways to create them - the Secret Handout has a whole UK Corps in the final offensive - so the chances of running into a UK player is very high

Plus since there are US troops fighting the Soviets in the UK it would make sense that at least some people would want to play a campaign in the UK - but then nothing offered to do so - this isnt V1 or V2.2 where the UK is an interesting place to visit if you are a US character - they were a big part of what stopped the "Soviet Sea Lion"

[Rainbow Six]

this isnt V1 or V2.2 where the UK is an interesting place to visit if you are a US character

V1's treatment of the UK was terrible. You know how you feel about V4 That's pretty much how I feel about the UK in V1 canon. I remember the crushing sense of disappointment that I felt when I bought the Survivor's Guide to the United Kingdom (in the Virgin Megastore on Princes Street in Edinburgh) and rushed home to read it. That was undoubtedly my worst T2K experience, far worse than anything V3 or (to date) V4 has produced. If you think that the UK was an interesting place to visit in V1 we'll need to agree to disagree.

As for V2 / 2.2 the only references I'm aware of are those in the Big Yellow Book.

[Olefin]

V1's treatment of the UK was terrible. You know how you feel about V4 That's pretty much how I feel about the UK in V1 canon. I remember the crushing sense of disappointment that I felt when I bought the Survivors Guide to the United Kingdom (in the Virgin Megastore on Princes Street in Edinburgh) and rushed home to read it. That was undoubtedly my worst T2K experience, far worse than anything V3 or (to date) V4 has produced. If you think that the UK was an interesting place to visit in V1 we'll need to agree to disagree.

As for V2 / 2.2 the only references I'm aware of are those in the Big Yellow Book.

V2.2. had complete information in the players guide on making a British Military character for the Army, Navy, etc.. which is a big step up from the Alpha - V1 once the RDF was released did give good information on running a UK military character

And yes I completely agree with you on the UK survivors guide - what has been produced since then by people like you was FAR superior

But at the least V1 and V2.2. had good information on the UK - so far I am not seeing that here

[comped]

Yea. Just how many copies do they plan to sell in Sweden versus the rest of the world. And this won't sell to anyone here I am afraid.

Its supposed to be a WORLD WAR!!! Is that a hard concept for them to understand, because according to this backstory, it is a pure Central Europe tussle. Or is Sweden suppose to be the predominant center of the universe in their version

Probably more than a few I suspect, but not as many as they hope world-wide.

[Southernap]

Because a number of the games made these days seem to be about "muh feelings". They give players a lot of opportunity to force their own narrative into the story without any regard to the story the GM is trying to tell. They focus a lot on a character's personal feelings but never seem to give any purpose for this, other than to supply unthinking players with some sort of motivation for playing the game - "If I don't have a Role, how do I know how to play my character"

I mean having some ideas on what your character is supposed to do, feel, or act can open up some interesting options for the GM and the players. I know I have been reading some GM prep books and even seen some "How to" videos on youtube about how to get a better experience in RPGs. That losing yourself into a good background or even work on building that background while playing can open up all manner of wonderful narrative options. Still, making it forced on turn 0 is silly and stupid in my honest opinion. Rather, and I have experienced this on the table, the ability to present a situation to the players and have a PC drop hints that the situation isn't healthy for them.

Allows for the GM or even the PC to get more out of the role playing experience. Heck, I have had some GMs express to me (and other PCs at the table) that we need to forget about our real lives and think about these characters that we are building right now. Give them some life otherwise it is a boring time around the table and almost mechanical feeling of stepping through the rules, but not really enjoying the game.

[Legbreaker]

Or just do what needs to be done, fire the writers, keep the artwork, scrap the Alpha and try it again

Not going to happen. Tomas is one of those writers, and in fact probably 95% responsible for the entire background. It was after all he who I watched in real time doing all the edits.

[Olefin]

Not going to happen. Tomas is one of those writers, and in fact probably 95% responsible for the entire background. It was after all he who I watched in real time doing all the edits.

Well then the V4 is truly screwed - FYI he seemed unaware of the last line on page 148 of the Players Manual showing every division associated with Reset was overrun and destroyed - but not sure if that was malarkey

[StainlessSteelCynic]

It seems to me that looking for supplies in the Free League reboot seems a bit too difficult.
If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.
The implication is that if others want to do so at the same time, then they need to wander off to another hex so that the characters end up about 10 klicks apart from each other - a profoundly stupid idea when you have hostile forces potentially in the vicinity.

Upon a success, you find one ration of food and I think you can only score up to two success. Living off the land seems to be so damned difficult I can't imagine anyone with real experience of being in the wilderness would find this game satisfying or enjoyable

I didn't really like the Year Zero rules to begin with and if anything, the rules they are hashing together for their reboot of T2k reinforces my bias against Year Zero rules.

[Legbreaker]

If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.

So in an area of 86.6 square kilometres, only one person can forage, hunt or whatever, and can find a max of 2 man-days of food.....
Right....
Sounds a little low even for somewhere like the central Sahara or inland Antarctica.

[Olefin]

So in an area of 86.6 square kilometres, only one person can forage, hunt or whatever, and can find a max of 2 man-days of food.....
Right....
Sounds a little low even for somewhere like the central Sahara or inland Antarctica.

Either Tomas and his guys have never foraged or hunted before or the game/wild berrries/etc. situation in the game is a hell of a lot worse than anything I have ever heard of - thats a hell of a lot of territory for such a little gain