v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[unipus]

I'm real curious what some of you guys were expecting.

I don't think it's a big shock that almost no RPG today is built on the foundation of the old GDW games. They had some interesting systems (certainly for character generation), but not a lot of elegance in those rules and not much you could push them before they were completely unwieldy. They're great reference (with a grain of salt), but I feel no nostalgia at all for the task of actually gaming with them. The "instant gratification" I am looking for (as a '90s gamer) is a system that is intuitive, quick, rich in theme tied to mechanics, and detailed enough to generate great, specific stories.

[Lurken]

I expected a solid game with better story than v1 and v2. Because both of them have plotholes the size of buffalos. Plotholes that created a lot of hot discussions on how to resolve them and make them understandable. Discussions that have mostly been resolved, other than possibly the canon status of Howling Wilderness.

When FL promised a remake of v2, we expected that. Same general plot, tweaked of course, to make use of our now better knowledge of the countries involved and the gaps earlier discovered and hotly discussed. We did not get that. We got Year Zero with a paint job of T2k slapped over it. Year Zero is a nice game for what it delivers, quick non-complex gaming.

T2k is not non-complex however. Logistics needs to be taken heavily account for. Traveling and planning as well.

I did some thinking, and under the hood, v1+v2 is not that different from v.FL. Both rely on random encounters from tables, or from a deck of cards. Both have a town/settlement generator. What I find different (from memory) is that v2 has a fairly good chapter about detailing how different generic groups may operate and their motives. Also GDW detailed a large number of towns in where ever the sandbox was placed. Be they occupied or abandoned, they were defined. So also a large number of military units, rebels and marauders. This gave a good background to work with in co-junction with the encounter tables.

The intel briefs for Sweden and Poland in v.FL are lacking in that regard. The number of towns/settlements defined in them are very low, be abandoned or not, and the military units feels disconnected from each other in a way. Can't quite put words to it. Meaning that using v.FLs story and setting will put a lot more focus on the GM to weave a understandable, coherent, reasonable and logical world for the players to move around in.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

What we were expecting, once we found out they were not going to deliver on the claim of updating 2nd/2.2 was a set of rules and a gameworld that complimented each other so that the gritty survival theme of living in the ashes of WW3 could be played out.
Instead what was offered was "survival lite" with a bunch of pseudo-military bits & pieces that, rather than support the idea of trying to survive and rebuild the world after we broke it, we get pulp action rules catering to the mall ninja crowd.

Here's a simple fact, Twilight: 2000 was set as a harsh, gritty, survival after a nuclear worldwide war setting based on the real world as opposed to the fantasy of say Gamma World. It is not meant to be easy, it was not meant to be swinging from the chandeliers and being a white knight.
So here's a simple truth, if people don't actually want to play a harsh game, then Twilight: 2000 is not the game for them.

I'm going to be brutally cynical here...
When FL announced that they were going to relaunch T2k, they said that they were going to tweak the game but keep it in the alternate history setting. As such, they implied that they were going to update the 2.2 rules.
Instead, they simply used the Year Zero rules.
For many people, that felt like a bait & switch move, it felt like they told us what they thought we wanted to hear to ensure we would buy the product when they had no intention of ever delivering what they said.

So, with their complete lack of engagement with many T2k forums in the beginning and with their plan to make T2k another Year Zero game, many people feel as though they have been dumped on from a great height.
If FL had no intention of relaunching the game in the manner that they implied, then why call it Twilight: 2000 at all
They could have called it anything else.
But to use the Twilight: 2000 name very much feels like they wanted to suck in the existing fanbase and get all the cash they could from them before that fanbase realised they were not getting what they expected.

What we expected from FL was what FL said they would deliver and what they ultimately did deliver is not what we were told. Some of the audience was, understandably, left confused and uncertain of what they would be getting. They did not get what they were told they would get. Instead, this feels like Free League trying to give us a gateway drug to get us hooked on Year Zero so that we buy more of their product. They made a hell of a lot of money from the kickstarter, I guess they figured right when they figured that nostalgia would be a money earner.

[sellanraa]

What I'm most curious about is the reality v perception.

How many backers are older excited folks from earlier editions v new Free League supporters who had no idea about the old versions How many older folks are as devastated as the handful of posters here v quietly accepting or even happy about the revision of the game

I've been most excited that it's being introduced to a big new audience because my perception (note that I acknowledge I don't know the numbers) is that T2K players are a pretty small, maybe even incredibly small but committed group. There are what, a dozen or so folks here posting regularly at what is the busiest forum of the old guard It feels like a little clubhouse. I love the passion but a tiny community nevertheless. No idea about how active FB groups are since I deleted but those also seemed quiet. That isn't meant to be a jab or anything, I admire your all's commitment.

That said, my perception (again, not knowing the numbers) is that FL just blew the door open on interest in the game and if even a fraction of those new folks dip into the older editions, it's a chance to expand this older edition community as well. For me personally, I don't want to sit at a table for hours resolving one firefight. I didn't even particularly love it when I played T2K through stretches of the 90s. So I'm happy maybe the combat will be a bit faster. What has most bummed me out is the overly simplified character creation. If they had expanded the skill lists and lifepaths just a bit, I'd have been way more satisfied. I've already debated selling the new edition metal box knowing it's unlikely I'll ever play it, but then, I've barely played the older editions in the last 20+ years because it's hard to find compatible folks who are interested in the game too (ignoring logistical challenges), yet every book sits quietly on the shelf anyway.

So back the primary thought, I wish we had the data on perception v reality. What do the numbers look like My hunch without the data is that the tradeoff FL made was alienating a handful of the old guard to open the doors to several thousand new and interested Twilight:2000 players which exponentially grew the community. Folks here feel the sting, somewhat understandably, but I'm most sad that the vitriol means the new folks curiously investigating this forum won't feel welcome and the community here will not grow, which may be what some of you want based on the the tone of discussion sometimes. But we will likely never know any of this in any concrete way without data because most folks stay out of these discussions and just play the game. The likely vocal minority and silent majority skews our perception without that data.

[Tegyrius]

I'm reserving judgement on the product until I see the final version (and, quite frankly, I don't have time to review the current public material right now because of my current operational tempo at work). Having been involved with a few product development cycles over my own freelance career, I try to remain mindful that significant changes can occur in the spaces between first draft, redlines, playtesting, and release, so I am not inclined to leap to conclusions about the final product based on preliminary material.

Having said that, I find myself largely in agreement with sellanraa regarding Free League's design intentions and this forum's fan community. The level of toxicity here usually simmers right around my tolerance level. I remain somewhat engaged here because of my appreciation for the game and its genre, not because I feel particularly comfortable or welcome. Looking back at threads from more than a decade ago, the tone of discourse here has most definitely taken a turn for the worse. I think that's driven by a combination of a few stridently argumentative voices, a couple of prolific high-volume/low-content posters who mistakenly equate quantity with quality, and the departure of many members who used to provide thoughtful, considered input. The result, IMO, is an opaque and reactionary social group that I doubt is welcoming to many new members who might come here from Free League's target audience.

When I try to look at the community with an outsider's eye, I'm thoroughly unsurprised that the company chose not to engage here. Some of the reactions on display in this thread are exactly why I chose not to tell this community about The Pacific Northwest before its release. Getting this sort of "feedback" would have taken my joy from the creative process into the woods, shot it in the back of the head, and buried it in a shallow unmarked grave.

- C.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

So let me get this straight...
When people criticised various parts of T2k and the subsequent reboots, they were labelled as cynics, defeatists, saboteurs, grumpy old farts, die-hard grognards, dinosaurs and any other pejorative that worked at the time.
Then when they got emotional about being slagged off and hurled the same shit back, they get labelled as "toxic"

[Raellus]

Ownership

Speaking only for myself, I did not call anyone toxic. I described behavior which is widely considered toxic in the milieu of fandom. I did not intend to insult or trigger anyone.

-

[unipus]

When FL announced that they were going to relaunch T2k, they said that they were going to tweak the game but keep it in the alternate history setting. As such, they implied that they were going to update the 2.2 rules.

Well, seems like the problem is immediately obvious just from reading that one paragraph. They didn't imply that, you inferred it. You read something that was never written and pinned a lot of false hopes on it. No wonder it doesn't live up to your expectations. But that's not on FL.

In any case, I get the definite impression many here haven't actually even thoroughly read the new edition, or at least certainly haven't played it. Some aspects have needed development or haven't even existed until this week. But the combat system alone is an example of something I've seen people complain about over and over here -- while somehow praising past editions. In actual play I've found it consistently generates results that resemble reality, and reward the side that applies real-world tactics to fix, flank, and finish the enemy. And, while still being a little slower than I'd like, it's definitely much faster and more fluid to resolve than prior editions.

[unipus]

When I try to look at the community with an outsider's eye, I'm thoroughly unsurprised that the company chose not to engage here. Some of the reactions on display in this thread are exactly why I chose not to tell this community about The Pacific Northwest before its release. Getting this sort of "feedback" would have taken my joy from the creative process into the woods, shot it in the back of the head, and buried it in a shallow unmarked grave.

- C.

I hear ya. I've definitely thought about working on some modules and so on. But reading stuff like is often posted in this thread saps the joy right out of that idea. I'd hate to write something that challenges someone's 30-year-old conception of what roleplaying and Twilight are! I've got enough salt already, thanks.

[Lurken]

I guess I am a tomato then. As someone wrote.

Painting everyone as people playing this for 30 years is using a very broad brush. I discovered T2k 8 years ago (goodness gracious that long ago), but got into it for reals only about 3 years ago. I got into it because it was an community and game that had no more drama because everything had been mostly settled. (Except the question of naval ships still floating and Howling Wilderness (and on HW as late as today I got a begrudging lesson on why my earlier take on it may have been wrong)).

However. Please.

Everyone. Please.

Stop. Please.

This is not the time and place. Juhlin is damn peaceful compared to other old fandoms. Let us continue on that path. People have steam they need to vent. Namecalling, direct or implied never helped anyone.

Now. Please.

Let us continue dissecting v.FL, pros and cons. Mechanics, background and other details and how they are similar (remarkably so if you look close enough), what makes them different (good or bad) and what one could do either improve or salvage what can be saved.

[Legbreaker]

It's us older players who's kept the game alive for the better part of three decades since GDW closed their doors - we've kept it going longer than GDW even existed! In my case I've been involved since 1984, the very year 1st ed was published, 37 years ago.
Now given that, shouldn't WE have some say in how the game is written and developed into the future
Besides FL spending money to buy the name, what right have they to toss out everything that's come before, declare even GDW's materials a "non-canon" and attempt to force feed us a substandard product
They've had ample opportunity to consult with the wider community, but I can understand why they've tried to keep their pool of advisors relatively small. However, as one of those who was invited to provide input to their draft even before the kickstarter and Alpha release it was abundantly clear they weren't all that interested in anything that didn't fit what THEY wanted. Almost nothing said by those not on their payroll was acknowledged, let alone incorporated.

[Legbreaker]

...and on HW as late as today I got a begrudging lesson on why my earlier take on it may have been wrong.

Begrudging
I thought it was just a pleasant conversation between friends with slightly differing interpretations!

[Lurken]

Begrudging
I thought it was just a pleasant conversation between friends with slightly differing interpretations!

Begrudging because I had to retreat from my position from a barrage of good references to other canon sources and sound deductive reasoning =p

[Legbreaker]

Begrudging because I had to retreat from my position from a barrage of good references to other canon sources and sound deductive reasoning =p

Well I do like to back my arguments with evidence and logic.

[sellanraa]

For better and worse, no, the old guard is owed absolutely nothing in this new edition. Painful as that may be. Thankfully the older editions are still perfectly playable.