Cavalry in T2K

[Mohoender]

The exact numbers don't really matter, but the comparison of country to country will give you an idea of how common horses might be in certain areas in a T2k world.

I agree with you. And now I see where the difference lies. Your figures would apply to my game by the way However, mine might be more accurate to a regular T2K game. Funny.

[Raellus]

Canon also mentions that by 2000, that warfare has largely devolved into raiding between cantonments. Cavalry (i.e. dragoons) would be well suited to these types of hit-and-run operations.

I'm not sure there would be horse population numbers or adequate forage to support cavalry divisions at WWII strength levels but the numbers of troops for cavalry "divisions" in T2K canon are much more modest and realistic. We're not talking Attila or Genghis Khan type horse armies here.

As for HW that T2K cavalry could deploy, on the WTO side, the Vasilek 82mm automortar could be towed by a couple of horses and has both indirect and direct fire capability. You could also have a HW section equipped with AGS-17 "Plamya" 30mm AGLs (fired dismounted, of course). Coupled with LMGs and RPGs, a T2K cavalry unit could pack as much firepower as an equivalent leg infantry unit, save some of the heavier artillery support. WWII era Soviet cavalry had horse-drawn 120mm mortar batteries and 76mm DP guns as well, so there's no reason a T2K WTO cav unit couldn't have a few 120mm mortars as well.

On the old forums, I posted a TOE for a T2K Soviet/WTO Cavalry division based on the structure of a WWII Soviet cavalry division (c.1943). I will post it again if anyone's interested.

[jester]

The US Cavalry has mostly been used as dragoons throughout our history. Although, they would do Cavalry charges, mostly their role was scouting, screening and patroling and such.


As far as Cavalry in the T2K role, in the US the South, West and SouthWest could probably field able mounted forces as a result of their large horse populations and people who know how to ride. Strangly enough, these same people usualy know how to shoot and own firearms too.

Also, an example in my country and the adjacent county they have a working Sheriffs Posse, and they also have some mounted units as well. Hell, even the college police has or had a mounted officer. <Then again that's Norco, horsetown USA, they do not have sidewalks, they have horse trails, and most stores, shops and saloons have corals and hitcing posts> And yes, when the wind blows I can hear the beasties and smell them, and there is a horse trail a long football pass out my backyard.

I would say in the US you could raise a decent sized force of armed riders who would not act as traditonal cavalry but they would not be a mob either. I would also say some units from the US in Europe and Asia could probably put together a Company of Cavalry per Division, these could be used as scouts and reconasanse forces. So, check out the order of battle of the vehicle guide and units from say Texas or Kentucky or New Mexico for example could probably field more riders than you could find mounts.

As for the downside.

Easy targets, and you take out the horse behind enemy lines that rider is essentialy lost. The reality of a raiding force or long range reconasance force is you will end up leaving people behind. Double up riders and the horse will tire and now you'll loose two men.

Tracking, a force of horsemen go by you can tell. And you can follow them quite easily. You can also tell the speed of the rider as well as the load and fatigue level of the animal. You trade them and you can even tell how well fed they are too which if you push them hard enough well the animals can't feed and will become exhausted and give out.

Load, most cavalry riders were not large men. Myself, at 6-2 I would have never made it into the cavalry. So, most of your riders need to be about 150 pounds or less.

WATER; you can control the water for an area and cavalry is in trouble. Horses need water and lots of it.

Maintenance: Horse need maintenance and they need it daily, they need water, they need to be cleaned, brushed, their hooves cleaned and checked and given large amounts of water as well as salt and grain.

Support: horses need large animal vets to take care of them. And blacksmiths to make and shoe them. Those I beleive would be in short supply.

They need maintenance 24 hours a day 7 days a week. A vehicle, turn it off and don't worry about it for a few days and no problem. Do that with a horse, ignore it for a week. Bad idea.

Guarded: in the T2K world you would need to guard your horses from hungry people and from enemy raids.

Machineguns: what killed the cavalry in WWI, now machineguns are smaller and more portable and much more common.

Conditioning 1: Horses are pretty skitish and spook easily. Thus they will need some training. But still a rock crashing can scare them, gunfire, explosions and vehicle engines or a tank could send them into a stampede.

Conditioning 2: The type of work they do. Most horses today are riden for recreational purposes and well tended living in stalls and barns. They would need to be conditioned to ride and live in the outdoors for weeks at a time carrying a rider daily and living on grass rather than grain.

Conditioning 3: What physical condition would the animals be in the T2K world They would need in my view to be rehabilitated since they would most likely have been neglected for sometime.

Sound: Horses walking make a distinctive sound, and they also ney or whinney and snort.

Those are some of the things I can see happening with returning to horses. Although I do use them in my campaigns, there is usualy some Polish Cavalry in my European games and in games in the US they are not uncommon.

[chico20854]

WWII era Soviet cavalry had horse-drawn 120mm mortar batteries and 76mm DP guns as well, so there's no reason a T2K WTO cav unit couldn't have a few 120mm mortars as well.

There were still some of those 76mm guns floating around in the Soviet war reserves, so they might be used again too!

On the old forums, I posted a TOE for a T2K Soviet/WTO Cavalry division based on the structure of a WWII Soviet cavalry division (c.1943). I will post it again if anyone's interested.

Please do!

[Raellus]

This is the WWII TOE that I used as a starting point. It's from David Glantz's Slaughterhouse: The Handbook of the Eastern Front.

Soviet Cavalry Division c. 1943 (overall strength, 6000 personel)

Three cavalry regiments consisting of four troops each.

One artillery regiment consisting of 2 battalions of horse-drawn 120mm motrars and 1 battalion of 76mm guns.

One regiment of tanks consisting of 2 battalions of T-34s and 1 battalion of T-70s

One HQ company, one detatched cavalry battalion, one AAA battalion, one sapper company, one signals company and one services company.
_______ _______ ________

For T2K, I would scratch all of the armor, thereby eliminating a couple of hundred men. I would replace the 76mm gun battery with 82mm Vasileks (although, as Chico pointed out, some units could still be equipped with the venerable 76mm guns).

The AAA battalion would be equiped with truck or horse-towed, quad 14.5mm guns or possibly ZU-23-2s. In the absence of an enemy air threat, they would mostly be used in the anti-personel/anti-material role. I could also see one of the AAA gun batteries being supplanted by a few SA-7 Grail SAMs which could easily be carried on horseback.

Each sub-unit's strength should be reduced somewhat in order to get it down to T2K divisional strength levels.

I realize that most T2K GMs don't deal with division sized units; unfortunately, I can't break it down any smaller.

Not terribly useful, I'll admit, but perhaps it can give an enterprising GM a place to start.

[Legbreaker]

Simple question.

Which would you rather eat, horse or rat

Now somebody try to tell me horses populations aren't going to drop drastically...

[jester]

Simple question.

Which would you rather eat, horse or rat

Now somebody try to tell me horses populations aren't going to drop drastically...

I would venture to guess that only in some areas for the following reason.

Most horses are in rural areas away from the population centers where the starving masses who clamor for horse flesh will be. For the horses in the region of the megatropolises, yes, they will be casualties of the event as well, but also, they will be one of the first animals to be eaten too.

Now, for the ones in the country on farms and ranches, good luck! Those folks have more room to be self sustaining, they love their horses and they have guns and know how to use them. And I know many horse people who care more for thier horses than people.

As for the tens of thousands of horses in the Wild, well they are in remote and isolated areas where the starving masses won't go. And if they made it that far, well, they would be in some pretty rough shape.

[Mohoender]

Simple question.

Which would you rather eat, horse or rat

Now somebody try to tell me horses populations aren't going to drop drastically...

Rat would be my answer. If I had a horse at hand I would keep it for other tasks. Eventually, I'll be willing to eat the guy who would have tried to carve a steak out of that horse. I only would think about eating horses in the case of outermost despair. However, I'm sure that many among the city dwellers would look at it with envy. It seems that this is going back to the subject on "State of the mind".

However, that horse wouldn't be available for cavalry as well. I might react in the same way toward cavalry than toward the horse eater.

[headquarters]

rural community defending it self

I saw the Morning after and felt that was prety realistic.(farmer shot in his field) .Even though farmers etc are better armed or more capable- it isnt going to be a hundred villains coming with gang colours and Mac-10s , more like a couple of thousand people of all ages and walks of life-children,elderly,men,mothers with babies.I dont see that desperate starving people like that will be turned away without significant slaughter.I guess it is equally hard to kill wether or not you are an urbanite -as long as the person you kill is just someone starving to death .Teenage girl maybe

That aside ,a horse militia troop could fight a mob of hundreds or thousands over miles of terrain and wear them down.

I guess my vote on the avalry thing is that horses have been the military advantage for thousands of years except the last 75 or 100 years or so .Once the fuel run out and our efficient smokeless powder ammo is gone -the horse people will rule again -depending on terrain imho.

But as stated -you could feed alot of people on the grazing lands for 1 horse.And imagine the time and resources going into the animals you are going to use for war -it doesnt bring food on the table even .

With the resources to train, graze and keep horses for military use in place ,I predict a big comeback from the hore cav as modern weapons and gear become extinct .But I guess only the wealthy will have it .Maybe the land owners in the rural community defending themselves

[jester]

MOD:

I like the whole refugee vs rural community discussion, MOD can we get a new topic going to continue it



As for Cavalry,

Lets not forget that some horses can survive on scrub. The Mongolian ponies and the U.S. Mustangs are two that come to mind. Also, toss in some of the biporducts of say grain production, or farming, a field left fallow durring regular crop rotation could be used as a field for horse or cattle grazzing.

Or areas that are to rocky or with to many hills could also be used.


As for numbers, in the Western US, there would be lots of mounted groups. With water being the more critical issue.

As for Europe, I would say a company or Troop or Squadron sized force per Division or some Brigades would be the norm and these would be used as scouting and patroling forces rather than regular combat forces. And of course the rest of the horses found would be put to work as draft animals for farming or hauling supplies which would in my view be of greater priority.

[kalos72]

Horse Cavalry Idea

So one of the big drawbacks to horse cavalry is the innate lack of heavy weapons...or the inability to utilize them while on horseback right

What if you had saddles with like "arms" to sit a SAW on as you rode, helping stabilize the barrel

Or maybe a mk19

I also dabble in D&D and saw a painting of a saddle that had a brace for a heavy lance off to the side.

[kato13]

My understanding of modern cavalry (up to WWII) was that weapons were primarily fired while dismounted. The only cavalry stories I can recall from the 20th century had the units using bladed weapons when they were forced to fight when mounted.

Somewhere in the wealth of T2k material there is a discussion of the 10th man in a cavalry squad staying with horses, while the remaining 9 progress into the battle on foot. I think this would be far more common that fighting on horseback.

The importance of cavalry is to provide a short term speed boost in movement. Infantry while slower can actually cover the same (or even more) distance long term.

[rcaf_777]

What about using a horse cart or wagon for heavy weapons, see examples below

[kalos72]

When I think Cavalry from the Wild West...I see guys flying around on horseback firing their rifles as they ride. Might be mostly Hollywood there...not sure.

I will read through the board map and see about related discussions...

[kalos72]

Regarding the 10th man,my squads will need to be pretty independent.

I was thinking of a farrier type person and 2-3 "hands" to support 20-25 horses or something.