Cavalry in T2K

[CDAT]

So one of the big drawbacks to horse cavalry is the innate lack of heavy weapons...or the inability to utilize them while on horseback right

What if you had saddles with like "arms" to sit a SAW on as you rode, helping stabilize the barrel

Or maybe a mk19

I also dabble in D&D and saw a painting of a saddle that had a brace for a heavy lance off to the side.

I could maybe see the SAW, but the MK19 is way to heavy and has way to much recoil I would think. But my understaning is the same as most of the others that modern cavalry was more like dragoons.

[kalos72]

Regarding the 10th man,my squads will need to be pretty independent.

I was thinking of a farrier type person and 2-3 "hands" to support 20-25 horses or something.

Ok so for the most part heavy weapons are out...what about 2-3 people and a farrier to watch 20-25 horses of the rest of the squad

These squads will be long range patrols through particular counties in Texas.

[mikeo80]

What I have read about Civil War and the Indian Wars of the 1870's - 1880's,
seem to indicate that most of the time, cavalry was used for reconnaissance. J.E.B. Stuart was one of the primary officers fir this kind of work. It can be argued that the Battle of Gettysburg was a mistake because JEB went off on a Recon Raid, but did not keep General Lee informed of where he was and what he saw.

During the Civil War and beyond the cavalry would ride up, dismount, and engage the enemy. I have read that as many as 1 in 4 men were used as horse holders. The recovered evidence at Little Big Horn seems to bear this out. Custer and his men formed a long skirmish line. While the attacking Indians were at a distance, this was fine, the Springfield trap rifle had the ability to keep opponents at long range. Once the Indian fighters got closer, using terrain, the fire power of their repeating Winchesters and Henrys overwhelmed the 7th Cav. Of course being outnumbered about 9 -1 did not help.

My $0.02

Mike

[Gelrir]

For horse-holders who can lead the horses around, from the saddle, 1-in-4 or even 1-in-3 seems typical.

Managing a bunch of horses that never move might be possible for a 1-in-10 horseholder, I dunno.

http://books.google.com/booksid=RmgDAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=cavalry+%22horse+holders%22&source=bl&ots=r-L2yJGLRj&sig=ybIdumHE888pwHQxwHVquQZrEb4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qor1Uu7bIZL9oASkiICQDw&ved=0CG8Q6AEwDQ#v=onepage&q=cavalry%20%22horse%20holders%22&f=false

http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mvid=253373

I seem to recall that the late 19th century Imperial Russian cavalry used 1-in-3; that is, one mounted guy, with an un-manned horse on each side of him. I think the Osprey book on the Russo-Turkish War mentions this.

As for mounted used of weapons: certainly pistol and sabre were the weapons of the U.S. Cavalry when mounted, in the early 20th Century. That's why each cavalryman was issued a pistol. I'm not sure if mounted rifle marksmanship was ever even discussed. The 1944 manual seems to presume that rifle usage will only happen dismounted, but I haven't read every page.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/ref/FM/PDFs/FM2-5.PDF

It's for an eight-man squad. Ah ha, a command on page 38: "To leave horses immobile": "All horses of one squad may be linked in a circle and left to the care of one horseholder". Of course, if you had 10-man squads, I imagine one guy could probably handle 10 horses.

--
Michael B.

[mpipes]

Your best bet is to read up on the German and Soviet cavalry on the Eastern Front in WWII. I do recall machineguns being part of their standard equipment, but I have no idea if they fired them from horseback. Carbines and SMG, yes. Those were fired from horseback. I know Soviet mounted cavalry overran German or their allied units on occasions. SS cavalry patrolled against partisans.

[Tegyrius]

I'll throw another vote for dragoons versus fighting from the saddle. One reason I haven't seen mentioned here: a horse is a bigger target than a man, and far harder to replace in most T2k theatres. Why expose your vulnerable mobility assets to direct fire

- C.

[dragoon500ly]

Speaking only for US Cavalry tactics, one out of every four men remained with the horses to control them.

Pistols and sabers were the perferred mounted weapons, as at least one hand would be necessary to control the reins, this was also one of the reasons that cavalry men had that thick leather strap around their shoulder that was attached to the carbine, you could fire one round and then drop the carbine (leaving it dangling) and draw pistol or saber as necessary.

In modern cavalry, the troopers would ride into the area, dismount, have the horseholders lead the mounts back out of the line of fire, the dismounts would deploy as skirmishers and start fighting. If the enemy started to withdraw, the horses were brought forward, and then used to bound forwards to the next position.

With the limitations on weight that a horse can carry, support weapons would either be carried on pack horses or in wagons. Your T2000 cavalryman would have a pistol and either a SMG or an assault rifle with maybe a M203 as the largest weapon carried.

[Targan]

We've had threads before with really detailed info on horses in T2K and dragoon forces.

[Raellus]

Merged. There's some good stuff here.

I see horse cavalry as being an increasingly important arm as the Twilight War winds down to a lower intensity. Cross-country scouting would be horse cav's primary role. I agree that troopers would almost always dismount before going into combat. That said, there might be room for an occasional charge- pistols or SMGs would be the weapon of choice for this rare occurrence.

Carbines would be the standard primary arm of the trooper. They would almost always be used dismounted, but they'd be light and handy enough to maneuver and/or deploy while on horseback. Heavy weapons most often would be GLs and SAW/LSWs. Mounts, however, would need to be trained not to panic while their riders are firing while mounted or in close proximity. I think that people tend to take for granted that horses can handle that sort of noise, but the truth is that they need to be conditioned to do so.

[Raellus]

[Sith]

You may or may not have seen this, but here is the last (at least I believe so) horse cavalry field manual put out by the US Army in 1941. There is some goodness in here as it reflects some thinking in how horses would be employed on the same battlefield as armor. Keep in mind though that its authors were also seeking to justify the continued use of horsed cavalry.

http://www.cgsc.edu/carl/docrepository/FM2_15.pdf

[Raellus]

I don't know much about the Grey's Scouts, but they apparently operated extensively on horseback.



I can't imagine that the accuracy would be any good- he'd likely be hard pressed to hit a barn door at anything over 50m, but I do think the ol' fashioned cavalry charge could still work under certain rare circumstances- like against a small irregular party caught out in the open.

[Raellus]

Interesting tactic requiring a very obedient and well trained horse. Or dead one.

[stormlion1]

Use of Horses is a good idea as long as feed and supply chain is reasonably intact, even a lot of there care and feeding is easily doable in the field like feeding them and changing there shoes. As for the carrying of heavy equipment even that is doable if its broken down and carried by more than one horse. A Saw could be carried by a pack horse and its ammunition by two others easily enough. Not all gear was carried by individual horses after all. They had a supply train. Not sure of the numbers but I THINK I remember the 7th Calvary when they went off to Little Big Horn were supposed to have had at least a several supply carrying horses. Not that they went with Custer, I think he left them behind or they were with Benteen. He had the packs after all with the additional ammunition supply.
The big problem will be horse supply, quite a few will not survive the events that plague the world with refugees eating them, being worked to death, and general disease's and other factors like people hoarding there's to do things like travel and plowing fields. Even a Race Horse can plow a field if that's all that's available to a farmer and he will hide that horse when troops show up looking for a ride to draft.
Wish I still had that book on the 7th Calvary, it had a lot of details on the Calvary that operated during the Civil War and the Indian Wars.

[mikeo80]

Storm Lion, you are exactly correct as far as 7th Cav is concerned. Custer DID have a supply train. Relatively small, but as you said, extra ammo. In fact, the last contact from Custer was a note he sent. To quote from the note,

Benteen

Come on. Big Village.

Be quick. Bring packs.

W. W. Cooke

P.S. Bring Packs.

Custer also did away with his heavy weapons. He refused a battery of 2 - 3 Gatling guns. (there are records of both numbers, so hard to tell.)

All the weapons of the 7th Cav consisted of the Springfield Trapdoor Rifles and Colt revolvers. Custer even ordered the troops to NOT bring their sabers.

My $0.02

Mike