Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Raellus]

Nailed It

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.

in the 90's the US had a lot of older M60 and M48 tanks still in storage as well as close to 500 M47 tanks in Italy in storage - they had spare parts and ammo and were ready to rock

Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct

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[Olefin]

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records – appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c8cc3c936e43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - they're almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

[pmulcahy11b]

To clarify the OP, I was addressing the deployment of relatively large stocks of mothballed weaponry,

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Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles Is there some equivalent to AMARC

[shrike6]

Here's something that should be helpful for this thread.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/The_USA_Historical_AFV_Register.pdf

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Thanks.



Intriguing. Where did you learn about the M47s in Italy And to clarify, those are US M47s, not Italian M47s, correct

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Olefin can reveal his source but I'm pretty sure that came to light as part of the CFE treaty. Some DRMO warehouse in Italy still had m47 tanks that were being counted towards the US total or something along those lines if I remember right.

[shrike6]

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

For Italy 1989 (which is basically the V1 situation)

Total tanks in inventory:
200 Leopard 1A1, 720 Leopard 1A2, 300 M60A1, 400+ M47;

2 Armoured Battalion with 34 M47 and one with 16 (they kept the 5-tanks platoons) for a total of 84; other in Carabinieri Mobile Battalions and as many as 300 in storage.

In the US section there is the following note

Tanks: 2374 M1 Abrams, 894 IPM1, 2100+ M1A1 (deliveries ongoing), 5328 M60A3, 2659 M60A1, as many as 1800 M48A5 , 1334 M551 Sheridan, 630 M47s (according to CFE records appears to reflect fact that Italian vehicles used for decades were leased or temporary transfers that returned to US control when taken out of service)

Thus it appears that the M47 tanks in storage in Italy were leased/transfer tanks per the CFE records

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c8cc3c936e43e1f90595576d

The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - theyre almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.

Or beat me before I even post. LOL I knew it had to do with CFE anyways.

[Ursus Maior]

the information on the M47's came from the Nato order of battle 1989 mod 8 that is on several websites - its been cited here in several threads

You also have this AP article on US destruction of M-47 tanks required under the CFE

https://apnews.com/article/dc5dc316c8cc3c936e43e1f90595576d

["]The United States will destroy 640 M-47 tanks - theyre almost a half- century old - but has yet to choose a contractor, said Capt. Debra Pressley of the U.S. European command in Stuttgart.["]

I like the NATO OOB document that's on the internet, but it's not always completely accurate. My main problem is the lack of source documentation, but alas, in its core its 20+ years old, so it's history itself.

As per the IISS publication "The Military Balance (1990)", the US (p. 19) had as "MBT: some 15,440: 1,013 M-48A5, 2,659 M-60/M-60AI, 5,328 M-60A3, 6,440 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

Italy had (p. 71) "MBT: 1,533: 313 M-47 (in store), 300 M-60A1, 920 Leopard (140 in store)."

For 1989 these numbers were (USA, p. 18) "MBT: sorne 15,992: l, III M-48A5, 3,487 M-60/M-60AI, 5,400 M-60A3, 5,994 M-I/M-IAI Abrams."

And (Italy, p. 68) "MBT: 1,720: 500 M-47 (incl200 in reserve), 300 M-60Al, 920 Leopard."

That contradicts the idea that by 1992 640 M47 would have been to be disposed of that previously were in any form of a ready state. Now, AP certainly was right about the disposal, but I cannot reconstruct how the numbers came to pass. Maybe these included tanks returned from allied nations under some leasing contracts.

It's not clear how many of these could have survived until 1995-1997, when tensions rose again and hostilities broke out respectively.

[shrike6]

Where does the US (or any other country, for that matter) keep their mothballed military vehicles Is there some equivalent to AMARC

Its called Sierra Army Depot

https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/sierra-army-depot

[Olefin]

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

[CDAT]

Keep in mind that we are talking all versions here

V1 doesnt have the CFE occur - its the old Cold War that never ends so the CFE never happens

V2.2 has the CFE occur I am pretty sure

as for V4 - I dont remember if the CFE is mentioned in the timeline

Thus the M-47 tank being available as a replacement tank for the US for later in the war really depends on what version you are playing and if the CFE occurred or not

Without it occurring a lot of older equipment is sitting in storage depots

One thing that may not matter in a game, is crew skill. I was initially trained as a M1 tank crewman, but I was trained when we still had M60's in service. So there was some cross training, and many of the systems were the same. If I was put into a M47 I would for all intents and purposes be untrained. I could probably load the main gun, and maybe run the radio, but not likely I could gun, maybe drive (I did grow up on a farm and can drive stick up to and including tractor trailers) but without someone who knows the ins and outs of the tank, moving from one tank to another is not as simple as all that. There is a reason it takes 16 weeks to train a tank crewman. In full disclosure this is also one of my pet peeves with TW2000.

[Brit]

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them

Ditto: There must be a lot of Lee Enfield SMLEs about all over the world plus copies/ In fact a photo here of a "SMLE owned by Maoist rebels in Nepal, 2005".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee%E2%80%93Enfield#Short_Magazine_Lee%E2%80%93Enfield_Mk_I

Before the T2K period, but... https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/...atollahs-iran/ But probably not all thrown away / lost / scrapped...

[Raellus]

The Karabiner 98k. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabiner_98k

I think it is mentioned in 'The Ruins of Warsaw' as the weapon carried by militia sections Plus, just too many about to not be in use. Weren't captured WWII ones put up for sale a while back by the Soviets / USSR / agents / from warehouses in the Soviet Union / Russia - cannot remember if it was pre / post - and people in the USA were buying them

Good call. And I think we'd see the same thing with the Mosin-Nagant. The Soviets/Russians had huge stockpiles. IIRC, they only started to flood the civilian market here in the States (you could get one at a sporting goods store for $100) after the dissolution of the USSR, when the Russians were doing whatever they could to bring in hard currency from the west. That wouldn't have happened in the v1 or v4 T2kUs.

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[Brit]

If this is up-to-date they are still in military use.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant#Increased_world-wide_use

Have not read it all so "buyer beware": http://www.smallarmssurvey.org/filea...pter-06-EN.pdf

Re: 'The Ruins of Warsaw' they are descibed as 'Mausers'. I added two and two... Page 13 plus ()

[3catcircus]

Besides antiquated kit in modern times, it's also extremely useful for alternate history WW2, Vietnam, Korea, British Malay, etc. past skirmish games.

More important than the kit - how about the music One can't deny that wars are culturally defined in part by the music of the times (or that the time produces the music.) Likewise the food. Hawaii wouldn't know spam without war, for example ...

[Matt Wiser]

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete. A well placed 76-mm from an Easy Eight Sherman or an 85-mm from a T-34/85 can still ruin your day.

[Brit]

Just remember: if it can still kill you, it's not obsolete.

Going way back...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Armouries#/media/File:RoyalArmoryLeeds.JPG

Seems the collection at Leeds, UK, opened in 1995 so late for the T2K period but it, or similar, must be elsewhere...

Are there any (large) collections of ACW period weapons 'that work' in US collections / museums Even if the musket isn't working the bayonet would.
Maybe a re-enactment society could stay together for self-protection

This could make a different Militia / Local Defence unit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atholl_Highlanders
"Although it has no official military role, this hand-picked body of local men are armed with Lee Metford rifles, and the regiment includes a pipe band".