Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Vespers War]

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

In a number of the militaries of less wealthy countries, a soldier's time is cheaper than new vehicles and there aren't sufficient threats to justify spending large sums of money on the latest shiny toys. There are M8 Greyhounds still serving in multiple Latin American forces, while the last M4 Sherman tanks were retired in 2018 and Paraguay might still have some M3 Stuarts in service (Uruguay retired theirs in 1999). As far as I know, M3 half-tracks are still in service in Mexico. About 15 years newer but still "obsolete," there are hundreds of M60 tanks still in service, to the point that Raytheon and Leonardo have both introduced SLEP packages within the last 5 years, while Taiwan implemented an Elbit SLEP in 2019. There's plenty of old stuff either still trucking along in active service with second (or third, or fourth) users or in reserve to be recalled if there's a big enough war to need fast expansion of a military.

[unipus]

A point I haven't seen brought up in this thread (although maybe I missed it) is that you'd be far, far more likely to see many of these obsolescent vehicles than cutting-edge ones, just as a matter of logistics. Where were all the T-80Us and M1A1s On the front line. That means that most of them got blow'd up in the first weeks of the war. The repair yards get blow'd up too, the spares get used up or blow'd up. Pretty soon there's not many functioning cool guy tanks around.

All of the above, in super fast motion, for aircraft.

Meanwhile, months or even years later, huge numbers of T-55s and M60s and M48s and T-34s are showing up to keep the show going. I doubt there are a whole lot of replacement T-80s coming, especially once the nukes drop.

Someone said a tank that's out of main gun rounds isn't better than a sandbag emplacement. Functionally true, maybe. In terms of morale on your average infantryman, it's pretty hard to beat the effect of knowing a TANK is guarding the approach to a town. (and I've personally seen this effect even in-game. It's great. One immobile T-55 is plenty enough to send the players scattering to rethink their whole plan -- as well it should!)

[Vespers War]

And modernization can simplify the logistics somewhat if a user plans accordingly - when Egypt updated their T-55s to Ramses II standards, they put in an engine with ~80% commonality with the M60A3's engine. They also used the same M68 cannon that they had used for updating the M60A3, the road wheels were the same as the M48, and British tracks replaced the Soviet style, so spare parts could be used across multiple vehicles. These would have been post-Twilight War vehicles (the prototype was in the late 1980s but series production wasn't until 2004), but the principle remains the same regardless of era - replace aging assemblies with newer ones you're already using, and the maintenance problems become more manageable.

[Ursus Maior]

Yes, these are very good points. Taiwan put M18 Hellcat turrets onto it surplus M42 Duster hulls, creating its Type 64 light tank. In my opinion, the difference between a Frankentank and a cross-model using upgrade is proper technical documentation and a series of builds larger than a hand full of field conversions plus avoiding obvious design bungles (e. g. cannot be operated safely).

[Raellus]

Wear and Tear (or Overuse It and You Might Lose It)

A lot of good points have been raised so far. Another factor to consider is how much, or how little, certain weapon systems are used in field training. Some armies can afford to do a relatively large amount of training, so their equipment sees a lot of use- this produces wear and tear that, in the short-term, requires routine maintenance, and in the long term requires replacement of parts and other more involved work. A lot of armies in the developing world (and some of the poorer Warsaw Pact nations during the Cold War) can't afford to conduct a lot of realistic field training, so their tanks and whatnot spend all but a couple of days a year in depot, not accumulating wear and tear*. So, it might be the case that at the beginning of the Twilight War, a T-34 that's been sitting in a depot for 360 days a year for decades (assuming it receives a modicum of TLC during that time) might be in better working condition than a 10-year old M1 that's been in and out of the shop half-a-dozen times because it's in the field on maneuvers or on the range (or whatever) at least 180 days a year.

*Disparities in training and their impact on operational readiness and battlefield performance is a topic for another thread.

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[Raellus]

WW2 Guns in Service Today

Stumbled across this video today.

https://www.youtube.com/watchv=s59IFr_5DJ4

No real surprises, IMHO.

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[swaghauler]

USS COD arrives in Erie PA

The USS COD has arrived in Erie's dry dock facility to undergo maintenance.

https://youtu.be/yj5Zv5LASQc

[Ursus Maior]

Is that the submarine that was caught in a river flood some time ago

[Olefin]

The USS COD has arrived in Erie's dry dock facility to undergo maintenance.

https://youtu.be/yj5Zv5LASQc

From what I remember the Cod is the only one that still has an intact pressure hull - the Pampanito is the only other one where it could possibly be brought back into use - they did make some cuts but the way they did it they could repair it and get water tight integrity again but her ability to dive much beyond a 100 feet was compromised - whereas Cod didnt have any changes

[Raellus]

Oldies But Goodies

Found a photo of Romanian Patriotic Guard troops using what appears to be a PM1910 water-cooled Maxim machinegun in the 1970s or '80s. These venerable weapons were used by most Warsaw Pact armies at one time or another and likely would have remained in reserve in significant numbers throughout the Cold War. Its replacement, the SG-43 Goryunov, would be even more common.

Also, this rare bird turned up in Libya in 2016.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/this-rare-cold-war-hungarian-submachine-gun-reappeared-in-2016-b96de9150913

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[cpip]

There's an interesting Twitter feed, Calibre Obscura, who posts various photos taken of weapons in the Middle East and Africa. Some of it is modern, but the feed turns up some interesting odds and ends, like a desert camo painted Mosin-Nagant or a very prettily-kept PPsH-41.

Between the strange old weapons, and the fascinating one-off modifications that show up there, it's a good view, to me, of what the Twilight equipment would look like: extensive customizations and pressing anything random into service that still works.

[Vespers War]

Found a photo of Romanian Patriotic Guard troops using what appears to be a PM1910 water-cooled Maxim machinegun in the 1970s or '80s. These venerable weapons were used by most Warsaw Pact armies at one time or another and likely would have remained in reserve in significant numbers throughout the Cold War. Its replacement, the SG-43 Goryunov, would be even more common. -

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine listed 35,000 PM M1910 Maxims in inventory in 2011, which should give a sense of the scale of possible Cold War reserves of the weapon.

There would also be RP-46 machine guns hanging around, since some of those were encountered in Iraq during the most recent conflict there. That's the heavy-barreled, belt-fed version of the DP-27 that can still use the original's pan magazines. It's a bit heavier empty, but the much lighter ammo storage makes it more mobile overall. Taliban forces had the older pan-fed DPM.

Edit to add: honestly, one very solid reason for Russian antiques to hang around is that the Three-Line Cartridge, Model of 1891 is still in use today, so supplying old weapons with 7.62x54mmR ammo is easy. It's a lot harder to source things like .30-40 Krag or 6.5mm Shoenauer or 8mm Lebel if you keep other countries' antiques around.

[Raellus]

The Ministry of Defense of Ukraine listed 35,000 PM M1910 Maxims in inventory in 2011, which should give a sense of the scale of possible Cold War reserves of the weapon.

Come to think of it, I remember seeing a photo of a Ukrainian soldier, kitted out in multi-cam fatigues and modern body armor, manning a PM M1910 Maxim in a bunker, within the last year or two. Thanks for jogging my memory.

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[Brit]

This (or similar)

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1223317491365163008

[Raellus]

Bingo!

This (or similar)

That's the one! Thanks. It's nice to know it wasn't just my imagination playing games with my memory.

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