Out of Mothballs: Obsolescent Weaponry on the T2k Battlefield

[Trooper]

I'm no expert but it seems like the time and resource investment restoring mothballed vehicles would be better spent upgrading non-combat military vehicles or civilian vehicles for combat use.

If you've got a couple one-off oddball vehicles you're not likely to have any part donors or spare parts in general. When they break down or are damaged all the work you've put in will probably be wasted. The question of ammo is also really important.

Without spare treads your museum tank is just an armored gun emplacement. Without main gun ammo it's just an HMG emplacement. A bunch of sand bags could do the same job with fewer resources.

Turning some 6x6s into gun trucks or welding some pintle mounts to the rollbars on some Hiluxes seems like more bang for the buck. Parts are likely easier to find, the endurance is better, and for the same investment of resources you could get several vehicles outfitted.

Taking tank from museum and trying use it in battle is not good idea. Tanks and other combat vehicles need a lot of spare parts. Usually, museums dont have lot of spare parts and they have to hunt parts to get museum tank in order and I dont mean anything resembling combat use. Museum staff and retired tank mechanics usually need several years to get tank in running order. And in that case, they drive tank couple miles per year in shows.

Finnish armed force doesnt have mothballed equipment or weapons. All equipment and vehicles are in use, storage for war time use or under repair. In 1990 planned war time strength of Finnish Armed forces was something like 580 000 men in full mobilization. Modern weapons and equipment for everybody Keep on dreaming

Only 10 Jaeger brigades and two Armor brigades were using modern weapons and vehicles. Rest of the army should have used artillery, small arms and other equipment from 1930as to 1960s. Infantry brigades, local defense units, air force and navy didnt even get military trucks, they would have to use civilian trucks and farm tractors.

That all come to end after cold war. Finnish army bought huge amount of former East German equipment from Germany. One former officer told me that if all that equipment was loaded to single train that train would have been 40 kilometers long. All those much loved and hated M-39s, Stens and Suomi-SMGs were finally sold or scrapped, because all troops could be armed with Finnish, Soviet, East-German and Chinese Kalashnikovs.

Anyway, in Twilight 2000 world cold war didnt end and in 2000 AD men meet their fate in cold dark forests using the same weapons that their grandfathers used nearly 60 years earlier.

[Olefin]

I dunno. Technicals (i e. Hilux with machine gun) do have their uses. Chad figured out that if they drove them over 100km/hr they could drive right through Libyan minefields without setting them off... That and it's very easy to procure them with aid grants from western nations when sanctions prevent military imports. The only way I see museum pieces being viable is in portions of the former USSR or in western nations. In the ME, Africa, SW Asia, they're too valuable as scrap to become pieces or they are too costly to do anything but abandon (like multiple African nation's airports currently hosting mouldering aircraft husks).

Keep in mind that in the 90's Africa, Southeast Asia and the Middle East were loaded with still very active "museum pieces" - the list of armies that still operated old WWII and early Cold War tanks and armored cars would be very extensive indeed - the last 20 years have seen many of them retired but in 1995 you have a lot of that equipment still in use. So dont count them out.

Also keep in mind just in Italy there are literally hundreds of old M47 tanks with plenty of spares in storage that were leased from the US Army.

And if you are looking at V1 there would be even more of such tanks and armored vehicles still around and still in running shape - i.e. the era of the US and Soviets sending stuff like that to countries like Kenya, Tanzania, Israel, Syria, etc. would still be very much in action

I also think that even a "Potemkin" tank has a lot of value - i.e. how many marauders are going to see a tank and decide that they want to take it on - not knowing that its basically immobile and may not have a working fire control system. Its one thing if its somewhere that has anti-tank weapons - its another if you are talking a bunch of guys with shotguns and hunting rifles seeing a tank and have nothing but some dynamite or a flaming bottle of gas to try to take it out with. Most would give it a wide berth.

[Raellus]

For discussion of the plausibility and/or utility of using museum pieces in modern warfare, please use the following thread:

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=4600

This thread is about obsolescent (not yet obsolete) weapons, which were in national militaries' reserve stockpiles, that would see front-line action at some point in the Twilight War.

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[Olefin]

The question is what would be a museum piece - that would depend on the country. The Soviets and Russians were still using T-34 tanks for driver training well into the 1990's - whereas in the US the comparable tank, the Sherman, by then was 100% a museum piece.

In Mexico and Paraguay they were still using Stuart tanks into the period of the timeline - here those are museum pieces. There they were active duty tanks.

So it may have to be something you would look at on a country to country basis as to what would be a museum piece. Keep in mind there are active duty T-34's still in several country's armies and that in the 90's you could encounter M-47 tanks in service in Turkey, Iran, Croatia, Pakistan and South Korea and in reserve storage in Italy.

And Austria has a lot of old tank turrets being used for bunkers - so while you wont run into the tank you could very easily run into the still very operational turret and its armament

Perfect example is the Ferret APC - its still in use in a lot of countries - so while some would call it a museum piece others would call it very much obsolescent but still operational.

[Raellus]

The question is what would be a museum piece - that would depend on the country.

Yes, but as you pointed out, if it a vehicle is in a military's reserve stock, for the purposes of this thread, it is not a museum piece (yet).

If a particular vehicle is actually on display at a museum, it is a museum piece.

Feel free to discuss the former here; please discuss the latter in the previously referenced and linked Littlefield Collection thread.

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[Olefin]

Yes, but as you pointed out, if it a vehicle is in a military's reserve stock, for the purposes of this thread, it is not a museum piece (yet).

If a particular vehicle is actually on display at a museum, it is a museum piece.

Feel free to discuss the former here; please discuss the latter in the previously referenced and linked Littlefield Collection thread.

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You got it - and as I said that is dependent on the country. So that offers a great way to pull out the rare older vehicle to surprise players. "What the heck I thought all the (fill in the blank with Ferrets, T-34's, M47's) went to the boneyard a lot time ago"

And the answer is yes they did - but not in Croatia or Greece or Turkey or Africa

By the way that is one reason the East Africa and Korea areas are such a great place to campaign - not only because of the re-enactor unit in Kenya but precisely because so many obsolescent vehicles are still being used that can be used to challenge the players with and not just the same tanks, BMP's, etc.

[mpipes]

Interesting to note that a lot of weapon systems were still in service or buried in some forgotten corner of some warehouse someplace. Examples -
1) Some friends cleaning out a warehouse found a crate of unissued Springfield Model 1884 rifled muskets in 1996.
2) T-34/85s could still be found in Russian training units and Machine Gun Divisions in the Far East in 1990.
3) Approximately 50 M60A2s were still in US POMCUS warehouses in 1990 as well as un-updated M60A1s.
4) MG34 and MG42 machineguns were in East German police and militia armories at reunification.
5) French police still have German G43s rifles in armories.
6) Norway still has MP40s SMGs in its militia armories.
7) German STG44s were captured in Iraq in 2003.
8) Up till about 1994, there were still M1 Carbines maintained in US armories.
9) Many US police agencies still possess M1928 Thompsons in their armories.

In my campaign, I have a fully operational M60A2 that was pulled out of a museum in a CIVGOV unit.

[Raellus]

That's the Ticket!

Interesting to note that a lot of weapon systems were still in service or buried in some forgotten corner of some warehouse someplace. Examples -
1) Some friends cleaning out a warehouse found a crate of unissued Springfield Model 1884 rifled muskets in 1996.
2) T-34/85s could still be found in Russian training units and Machine Gun Divisions in the Far East in 1990.
3) Approximately 50 M60A2s were still in US POMCUS warehouses in 1990 as well as un-updated M60A1s.
4) MG34 and MG42 machineguns were in East German police and militia armories at reunification.
5) French police still have German G43s rifles in armories.
6) Norway still has MP40s SMGs in its militia armories.
7) German STG44s were captured in Iraq in 2003.
8) Up till about 1994, there were still M1 Carbines maintained in US armories.
9) Many US police agencies still possess M1928 Thompsons in their armories.

Thanks, MPipes. Those are exactly the kinds of things I'm hoping to catalogue here.

Re #7, according to Wikipedia...

"The Sturmgewehr remained in use with the East German Nationale Volksarmee with the designation MPi.44 until it was eventually replaced with domestic variants of the AK-47 assault rifle. The Volkspolizei used it until approximately 1962 when it was replaced by the PPSh-41. It was still used by other public security formations thereafter.[24] The ammunition was manufactured there at least until 1961.[24] Other countries to use the StG 44 after World War II included Czechoslovakia (although it was not officially adopted)[24] and Yugoslavia, where units such as the 63rd Paratroop Battalion were equipped with it until the 1980s,[25] when the rifles were ultimately transferred to Territorial Defense reserves or sold to friendly regimes in the Middle East and Africa. France adopted captured StG 44 for colonial Foreign Legion units."

And, apparently, it is still produced today in Germany as a sporting rifle, both in the original caliber and in .22 rimfire.

So, one could expect to find examples of the StG 44 scattered about during the Twilight War.

In addition to previous examples, Romanian Patriotic Guard troops were equipped with MG-34s until at least the 1970s.

I also reckon that one would frequently encounter PPSh-41s and PPS-43 SMGs in East Bloc militia/irregular/deep reserve units come 2000.

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[Vespers War]

I also reckon that one would frequently encounter PPSh-41s and PPS-43 SMGs in East Bloc militia/irregular/deep reserve units come 2000.

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Both the PPSh-41 and PPS were used at the start of the current Ukrainian unpleasantness, so they would definitely still be around in any of the existing Twilight War timelines. They might also appear in Africa and East Asia, based on the users and former users listed on Wikipedia.

[Olefin]

Keep in mind this is current data on the T-34 tank as of 2020

Current
Cuba: 642 supplier - undisclosed number in service.
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 5
Republic of the Congo: In reserve.
Guinea: 30 still operational
Guinea-Bissau: 10
Namibia: 4 (in reserve)
North Korea: 650 - undisclosed number in service
Yemen: 30 operational
Vietnam: 45 in service as a trainer

[3catcircus]

Keep in mind this is current data on the T-34 tank as of 2020

Current
Cuba: 642 supplier - undisclosed number in service.
Bosnia-Herzegovina: 5
Republic of the Congo: In reserve.
Guinea: 30 still operational
Guinea-Bissau: 10
Namibia: 4 (in reserve)
North Korea: 650 - undisclosed number in service
Yemen: 30 operational
Vietnam: 45 in service as a trainer

It's much more likely for small arms to be available from bygone eras than artillery, armor, etc. It's just way too costly to maintain a fleet of reserve tanks or ships or airplanes. A rifle is easy - coat in grease, wrap in oilskin, and pack away.

The Boneyard in AZ or the reserve fleet in Philly are examples of wishful thinking, for example - to maintain hardware, you either have to spend the time and effort to maintain it ready-to-go (in which case why bother if you have a front-line set of kit but no guard or reserve troops to use and maintain the old kit) or you have to do so much layup to prepare it for long term storage that it'll take months (or longer) to make it serviceable.

I think that is the key - in order to have antiquated weaponry that isn't a true museum display piece that can actually be used, having reservists or guardsmen type troops to continue using it is necessary.

[Olefin]

It's much more likely for small arms to be available from bygone eras than artillery, armor, etc. It's just way too costly to maintain a fleet of reserve tanks or ships or airplanes. A rifle is easy - coat in grease, wrap in oilskin, and pack away.

The Boneyard in AZ or the reserve fleet in Philly are examples of wishful thinking, for example - to maintain hardware, you either have to spend the time and effort to maintain it ready-to-go (in which case why bother if you have a front-line set of kit but no guard or reserve troops to use and maintain the old kit) or you have to do so much layup to prepare it for long term storage that it'll take months (or longer) to make it serviceable.

Oh the rifles and other small arms will be in great profusion - the armor/artillery/armored cars etc. are more to show, as per Raellus question, what kind of obsolescent vehicles will be seen in the T2K timeline.

I.e. what might get pulled out of reserve, etc.. and find itself fighting on the battlefields as modern armor gets short

I recommend an excellent book you might like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te...aeli_War:_1999 - very relevant to the topic - shows the US having to use old Lee, Sherman and Stuart tanks when the modern armor they had broke down

And I disagree with you on maintaining hardware - many of the older tanks are still in operation precisely because they are so easy to maintain. That guy in my town who owned the Sherman kept it going with a backyard garage and tools he bought from Sears and spare parts that in some cases he improvised from old service manuals he had.

Compared to the marvels of modern tech we operate now they may still be going long after the Twilight War ends due to their simplicity and still be fighting on battlefields when the last M1A1 has finally broken down for the last time.

[3catcircus]

Oh the rifles and other small arms will be in great profusion - the armor/artillery/armored cars etc. are more to show, as per Raellus question, what kind of obsolescent vehicles will be seen in the T2K timeline.

I.e. what might get pulled out of reserve, etc.. and find itself fighting on the battlefields as modern armor gets short

I recommend an excellent book you might like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Te...aeli_War:_1999 - very relevant to the topic - shows the US having to use old Lee, Sherman and Stuart tanks when the modern armor they had broke down

And I disagree with you on maintaining hardware - many of the older tanks are still in operation precisely because they are so easy to maintain. That guy in my town who owned the Sherman kept it going with a backyard garage and tools he bought from Sears and spare parts that in some cases he improvised from old service manuals he had.

Compared to the marvels of modern tech we operate now they may still be going long after the Twilight War ends due to their simplicity and still be fighting on battlefields when the last M1A1 has finally broken down for the last time.

It's not that they may be easier to maintain, technology-wise. It's that they require so much more of it the older they get. It's easy to troubleshoot and replace an LRU on new kit. When you have to half-step down to the circuit card or the mechanical subassembly and then physically repair it, it is infinitely more difficult and time-consuming, even if the equipment is easier to understand and repairs can be done with a screwdriver and wrench but takes 4 hrs instead of 15 minutes - when you have a fleet of vehicles you are maintaining.

[mpipes]

Forgot to mention that the Soviets stored THOUSANDS of captured German weapons at least through the 1990s. A friend was shown one salt mine in the Ukraine in the mid 90s storing WWII captured weapons. He personally saw and inspected crates of Lugers, P38s, G43s, K98s, MP-40s, and MG34s and 42s. All of them were in extremely good condition and fully functional. The Russians also had all the Thompson SMGs received with their lend lease Sherman tanks in storage, and many of those parts kits after the receivers were demilled were imported in the 90s and early 00s.

[Brit]

Articles about the Vietnam War but may interest:

https://wwiiafterwwii.wordpress.com/2015/07/10/wwii-german-weapons-during-the-vietnam-war/

https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/wwii-german-weapons-vietnam.html