On this day 25 years ago (Commentary Thread)

[Olefin]

There is even a Joint Logistics Plan for that......

850 Repair and Recovery of USN ships 20 Nov 1990

I agree with you there - the San Jacinto should have never left Scapa Flow - there is literally no reason to tow it back to the US for repairs given that plan - and its relatively early in the war - i.e. its not like they are all out of parts already

[Homer]

278th ACR re-equipment

The cannon re-equipping of the 278th was always a bit confusing. I appreciate that it gave an early model of the hodge-podge nature of the the military as a whole after two and a half years of "broken-backed" warfare and allowed for the introduction of a variety of esoteric vehicles.

That said, the Army had a variety of light cavalry and motorized infantry organization models using the hmmwv or jeep, up to the OTL ACR(L). With production of TOW, small arms, hmmwv, and potentially M198 howitzers presumably ramped up for the war in China, material may be available in quantity. This equipment is easily transported, supports existing doctrine, and uses existing logistics stockpiles. Plus, the combat mos manning numbers in the light ACR/CAV TOE are less than or equal to those of a heavy ACR or CAV unit. Any excess support personnel in HHTs and RSS can be released back as replacements. With a heavy squadron (+), all the separates (MICO, ADA btty, Sapper CO, and MP plt), and two reequipped light squadrons the regiment can still perform most reconnaissance and security missions. The biggest handicap would be the loss of the RAS, assuming that the helo's were cocooned and shipped and not sent by strategic airlift.

I wonder what the chain of events is that sees the 278th requipped with nonstandard material prior to the nuclear strikes

[cawest]

The cannon re-equipping of the 278th was always a bit confusing. I appreciate that it gave an early model of the hodge-podge nature of the the military as a whole after two and a half years of oebroken-backed warfare and allowed for the introduction of a variety of esoteric vehicles.

That said, the Army had a variety of light cavalry and motorized infantry organization models using the hmmwv or jeep, up to the OTL ACR(L). With production of TOW, small arms, hmmwv, and potentially M198 howitzers presumably ramped up for the war in China, material may be available in quantity. This equipment is easily transported, supports existing doctrine, and uses existing logistics stockpiles,

I wonder what the chain of events is that sees the 278th requipped with nonstandard material prior to the nuclear strikes

i think that they are a good way to get fire support HMMWVs into production.
you could say that its made at Corp Maintenace depots out of spare parts. they have the base Hmmwv (from MP units. you can replace them with armored SUVs or police cars made in Germany), 25mm from a m2/3 and an early gen CROWS.

[Davesdewas]

I love the smell of napalm in the morning. You know, one time we had a hill bombed, for 12 hours. When it was all over, I walked up. We didn't find one of 'em, not one stinkin' body. The smell, you know that gasoline smell, the whole hill. Smelled like... victory. Someday this war's gonna end...

hellodear.in

tea tv

[pmulcahy11b]

one ton of mass moving fast (falling or swinging) enough will knock off the turret, Russian tanks don't have a bussel(sp). in WW2 a 152/155/5.5 in hoz would knock off Tiger turrets just by the force of the hits. (KV2 i know did this). they would not pen the armor. i also could see that it would knock off the tracks. and aspirin is not going to help with that headache. it would be a new take on city fighting.

That reminds of a story from Vietnam...a Cobra spotted a PT-76 moving across a field, but all his rockets were gone except for an HE pod. He fired anyway, thinking he could slow them down...when friendlies got to the strangely-immobilized PT later, they found that there were no penetrating hits, but the crew was dead nonetheless, and they all had blood coming out their noses and ears...the HE rounds didn't penetrate the PT, but the concussion from the HE rounds had killed them.

There should be a rule for that...

[The Zappster]

As a quick and dirty rule so as not to slow down play, I have had every point of armour absorbs 1 dice of concussion damage. I use this for solid structures people are hiding behind too. I'm not sure what I would do if the vehicle was noted as being blast proof like modern armoured vehicles, it's not come up yet.

[The Zappster]

I should note that I use the 2.2 rules

[chico20854]

I agree with you there - the San Jacinto should have never left Scapa Flow - there is literally no reason to tow it back to the US for repairs given that plan - and its relatively early in the war - i.e. its not like they are all out of parts already

Thanks!

I envisioned that the damage from the Norwegian Sea and convoy battles was so extensive (as would be fitting a struggle that saw 80% of the Northern Fleet sunk) that the British repair facilities would be overwhelmed. I did have Scapa Flow as a forward repair base, with several USN and RFA depot ships, tugs and repair ships (and probably a floating drydock) stationed there, with the twofold mission of repairing minor damage to get ships back in the fight as quickly as possible and stabilizing heavily damaged ships so that they had enough structural integrity to survive transit to a full-capacity repair yard.

I agree that its risky to tow the ship through sub-infested waters, I'll attribute the decision to desperation to get a semi-premier asset back into service rather than have it languish at a British repair yard waiting for a berth.

And, frankly, I was trying to provide something a little more interesting than "the San Jacinto was sunk while on patrol!"

[chico20854]

The cannon re-equipping of the 278th was always a bit confusing. I appreciate that it gave an early model of the hodge-podge nature of the the military as a whole after two and a half years of oebroken-backed warfare and allowed for the introduction of a variety of esoteric vehicles.

That said, the Army had a variety of light cavalry and motorized infantry organization models using the hmmwv or jeep, up to the OTL ACR(L). With production of TOW, small arms, hmmwv, and potentially M198 howitzers presumably ramped up for the war in China, material may be available in quantity. This equipment is easily transported, supports existing doctrine, and uses existing logistics stockpiles. Plus, the combat mos manning numbers in the light ACR/CAV TOE are less than or equal to those of a heavy ACR or CAV unit. Any excess support personnel in HHTs and RSS can be released back as replacements. With a heavy squadron (+), all the separates (MICO, ADA btty, Sapper CO, and MP plt), and two reequipped light squadrons the regiment can still perform most reconnaissance and security missions. The biggest handicap would be the loss of the RAS, assuming that the helos were cocooned and shipped and not sent by strategic airlift.

I wonder what the chain of events is that sees the 278th requipped with nonstandard material prior to the nuclear strikes

I agree, looking at the situation at this point in the war, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The month of combat in East Germany wasn't sufficient to deplete the European war reserve stock of vehicles, and there are six division sets worth of equipment coming over from Europe (the complement of the divisions that fell in on POMCUS sets), without any change in TOE other than, as you pointed out, the aircraft.

[chico20854]

January 24, 1997

Another day with nothing in canon!

The attack submarine USS Tunny, with SEAL Delivery Vehicle Team One aboard and the one of team's SDVs in the DDS on deck, departs San Diego.

The Lithuanian Free Army ambushes a truck convoy containing MVD troops searching for their base camp.

The US 8th Marine Regiment, aboard amphibious shipping, enters the Mediterranean Sea to commence a series of raids on enemy facilities.

A Turkish village in Cyprus is burned by a Greek militia; 68 civilians are killed.

The 89th TFS (part of the 482nd TFW, AFRES) intercepts a Tu-16 strike force over Black Sea. Unfortunately, three F-16As are lost to escorting PVO Su-27s. Three Naval Aviation bombers are downed and the strike on the Turkish naval base at Bartin is largely ineffective.

In Romania, the front line has been restored to where it was a week before. The Romanians have lost 2000 men (600 KIA, 800 wounded and 600 captured), while the Soviets lost a similar number.

The first Soviet raider (the Riga-class frigate SKR-71) links up with a flotilla of Soviet fish factory ships, trawlers and support vessels in the South Atlantic. The frigate is able to obtain food, fuel, and small amounts of 100mm ammunition before transiting east into the Indian Ocean.

Convoy 210 departs San Francisco Bay, repeating the route San Francisco-Honolulu-Guam where it will split into sub-convoys to Subic Bay-Singapore-Diego Garcia and Okinawa-Pusan, which has been followed by other convoys.

[swaghauler]

Former ROTC cadet at Carnegie Mellon and University of Pittsburgh. Ditto!

YOU'RE A YINZER

I did ROTC too. First at Allegheny College right behind the Admiral (Lee) and later in the unified program that included Allegheny, Ganon, Mercyhurst, and Edinboro Universities. All our "drills" were held at Edinboro. I still declined a commission though, I LOVED being on a gun crew and wouldn't give it up, even after they disbanded the 4th/92nd FA. That's how I ended up on active duty with the 10th Mountain during RESTORE HOPE.

[swaghauler]

That reminds of a story from Vietnam...a Cobra spotted a PT-76 moving across a field, but all his rockets were gone except for an HE pod. He fired anyway, thinking he could slow them down...when friendlies got to the strangely-immobilized PT later, they found that there were no penetrating hits, but the crew was dead nonetheless, and they all had blood coming out their noses and ears...the HE rounds didn't penetrate the PT, but the concussion from the HE rounds had killed them.

There should be a rule for that...

Try this...

I place the LCG Penetration numbers in V2.2 in the DAMAGE column. This Damage is treated just like Small Arms Damage and is the number of DICE of Damage that the LCG can do to people or structures. When striking objects like the components in tanks or other large or tough items, the Damage is treated as "points" not "dice," so IF you shot the side of a generator, you would not need to roll 80 D6s (see below)!

I then give the various rounds the normal Small Arms PEN numbers like 1/2 (APDS), 1/4 (APDSDU), 1(HEAT), 2 (HEDP/HESH), 3 (HE), 4 (HE-Frag/Illum/WP). The armor is multiplied by the PEN and that amount is subtracted from the Damage with the excess going through. When you hit a vehicle with an EXPLOSIVE ROUND, the armor CAN stop a large amount of the physical damage BUT the occupants will take 1 POINT of Concussion Damage per Die of HE/HEAT Damage the armor stops. These points are distributed equally to all locations with excess points being assigned to Heat, Chest, Abdomen, Arms, and Legs in that order. Spaced armor/Blast-Ablative armor halves the Concussion Damage and Chobbam armor/Mine-Resistant armor quarters it.

Any Damage that penetrates is distributed on a Vehicle Location Hit Chart (this is just a random chart with 20 lines on it with components listed on each line. Large components like autocannon can take up multiple lines). This is just a listing of major components and crew on that facing of the vehicle. You roll a 1D20 on this chart to see what is hit and I then have the players roll ANOTHER 1D20. This represents the percentage of damage to that item. If you roll a 7, the item was hit for 35% of its capacity. I give every item what is essentially like a Durability Rating which represents 10% of its Durability. So IF you hit the radio (5 Durability) and roll a 10 on that D20, the radio is 50% damaged and you subtract 50 points from the Damage remaining and roll then for another item to take a hit IF any Damage Dice remain. If a crew is hit each point on the D20 equals ONE DIE of Damage received. So a roll of 12 would equal 12D6 Damage. IF All the penetrating damage is absorbed by a single component, that is the only thing which is hit. For example, a 125mm DU round penetrates the turret of an M60A3 with 30 Damage and hits the main gun (150 durability). The player doesn't even need to roll the Percentage of Damage die because it is just 10%. No additional items are damaged either. If you're wondering, yes this is 2300AD's ship damaging system mixed with v1 & v2.2 damage rules.

[cawest]

i now you have a lot on your plate. but the attached might be use full. the first is civi trucks and cars for combat. the second is popeye that was almost made for the IDF (maybe a second supply point). the penguin can be mounted on a UH 60, and the old sea apache. I could see the 1st proposal being green lighted with 2nd being worked on or in test phase by this point in the war.

https://tanks-encyclopedia.com/dacia-duster_td/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popeye_(missile)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penguin_(missile)

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/mcdonnell_sea_apache.php

[Homer]

I agree, looking at the situation at this point in the war, it doesn't make a lot of sense. The month of combat in East Germany wasn't sufficient to deplete the European war reserve stock of vehicles, and there are six division sets worth of equipment coming over from Europe (the complement of the divisions that fell in on POMCUS sets), without any change in TOE other than, as you pointed out, the aircraft.

Yep- the light cav TOE jumped out because the material is easy to train on (19Ds train on the HMMWV, .50 cal and Mk19 at OSUT and a monkey can use a TOW once it's collimated), probably in production, and easy to move. But, re-equipping out of the full heavy ACR set (less RAS) that was left in CONUS by 3d ACR and shipped forward or dipping into some of the kit being shipped forward from the heavy division garrisons may make sense. Unless combat losses were higher than forecast, or subs/raiders got some of them. Maybe there is a plan to rapidly NET and re-equip some of the guard units coming over, even though cannon doesn't support this (36th ID still runs M113s and M60s in the US combat vehicle guide- OBE perhaps).

I could see a second refit of the 278th after combat attrition of the light vehicles in Poland. As history has shown, the 1025/1026/966/988 have limited survivability against most threats. Maybe the re-equipment with V series, peacekeepers, etc came after regeneration following losses early in the 97 campaign Plus, I can't see the USAF giving up airfield security and EOD vehicles as they are trying to protect airbases from SOF, UW, and UXO threats. There weren't that many of them either.

[chico20854]

January 25, 1997

nothing in the canon for today, but unofficially:

NATO heads of state hold a secret meeting to determine war goals. Consensus is reached to present the USSR with an option to end the conflict worldwide, with a return to prewar borders in Poland, Korea, Iran and the Balkans; a unified Germany will remain and the USSR can retain the areas of Manchuria north of the Sungari River.

The Freedom-class cargo ship Arizona Freedom is delivered in Pascagoula, MS.

A Seattle city police officer pulls over a van for running a red light and is shot dead by the driver. A massive police response results in a barricade situation.

photo
The first MiG-29 sortie at a Red Flag air combat exercise at Nellis AFB, Nevada, is flown by LSK (East German Air Force) Major Jan Hoche in an aggressor role. The Red Flag exercises were decisive in giving NATO pilots an edge over their Soviet and Pact opponents, since the realistic training replicated the vital first combat missions that had historically cost so many pilots their lives. Having a top of the line MiG flown by a Soviet-trained pilot increased the value of these exercises even more.

There was an intense Soviet-Polish artillery barrage on bridgehead opposite Frankfurt-on-Oder; otherwise the Central Front was quiet as both sides licked their wounds and tried to replenish their depleted stockpiles.

Headquarters, 7th US Army orders the release of war reserve vehicles to re-equip the 278th ACR. 2nd Squadron, 278th ACR assumes responsibility for a sector north of Regensburg facing Czech troops.

A Nimrod patrol aircraft operating from RAF St Mawgan (42 Sqn RAF) sinks the Soviet Victor II submarine K-495; Maritime patrol aircraft had been searching for the sub since it sank the San Jacinto two days prior.

The Turkish government makes a unilateral decision to intervene in Cyprus; 39th Infantry Division begins loading onto amphibious shipping in Antalya on the Mediterranean coast.

Soviet long-range aviation turns its attention to the Balkans, launching a massive nightime air raid on the Romanian "23 August" tank plant in Bucharest. The strike uses conventional "dumb" bombs and inflicts light damage, for the loss of two Tu-16s.

The US 6th Fleet commits the attack submarine USS Spadefish to patrol the Black Sea following the loss of the Bluefish.