4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[unipus]

I'd agree with all of that. I've been running a narrative-heavy game for about the last year (30 sessions or so), starting from the alpha rules. So there have been some changes in that time, some of them suggested by me! But overall the rules are pretty focused on speed but not completely at the expense of depth, and the overall results (in combat anyway) seem as plausible as any I've seen. It still takes half a session to run a decent-sized combat, which is not my favorite thing -- but at least it's not a full session!

[Heffe]

I'd agree with what's been said already regarding whether the new edition being any good or not. There's a couple of noteworthy topics and differences:

1. The older versions felt much more open-ended and narrative driven - I think the older versions just felt like you could go anywhere, do anything. The sky was the limit. I don't know if it's the rules for strategic play, the hex map, the encounter cards, or the limited knowledge about what's happening in the rest of the world, but so far it feels like the new edition is slightly restricting in that regard. As a result, I'm using the world setting and more open narratives/modules of past editions.
2. The actual game mechanics - The new edition is pretty solid and dependable in providing reliable and consistent results. Combat seems streamlined over previous editions while still feeling realistic enough. It does tend to move a little more quickly while still being fairly gritty, which is nice. 3. Char Gen is, IMO, better than previous editions. Sure you lose some attributes and skills, but the efficiency gains in gameplay are worth it, at least to me. I like the new skill resolution process as well, it's a bit more abstracted, but it works.
4. The new edition is admittedly less gritty and more abstracted in other areas as well. Encumbrance is abstracted. Gear is often abstracted. The firing of bursts and automatic fire is abstracted. I imagine this will hit differently for different players. Veterans and gearheads might not like it, but for new players and folks that don't know the difference between an AK-74 and an AKM, I think the new stuff works. And for those that prefer to dig in deep on equipment, you can swap for the old lists really, really easily.
5. Some sections of the new version, I'm not sure should have been included. For instance, the base building mechanics, and solo rules, while nice additions, feel a bit rushed and underwhelming. I would have preferred some lengthier sections on these topics if they wanted to do them well. Of course, at least the new version HAS these topics.

All in all, I'm really happy with my purchase and with the 4th edition as a product. It's different, and it's going to feel different than old editions. Some stuff isn't as good, other things are better. I do think FL did a good job of capturing the spirit of the game though, all things considered. I'd recommend it.

[unipus]

I believe the solo rules WERE a last-minute addition, as it overlapped closely with announcement of The One Ring KS, and Shawn Tomkin's involvement. I also think it's unfortunate that they're stuck way in the back and labeled "solo" as they're super useful even for fully-crewed games. I use the stuff in there more often than the encounter cards!

As for combat, I find the rules to be less crunchy and precise, but actually far more realistic in both approach and outcome. At least when it comes to infantry combat. The vehicle rules are a tiny bit half-baked, admittedly.

[Tegyrius]

1. The older versions felt much more open-ended and narrative driven - I think the older versions just felt like you could go anywhere, do anything. The sky was the limit. I don't know if it's the rules for strategic play, the hex map, the encounter cards, or the limited knowledge about what's happening in the rest of the world, but so far it feels like the new edition is slightly restricting in that regard. As a result, I'm using the world setting and more open narratives/modules of past editions.

This is my impression as well. I haven't had a chance to actually use the system yet due to other project priorities, but from reading it, it feels like the dev team had a very specific outline with a list of "game must do this" priorities, and any mode of play not on that list was not worthy of word count. It's tight design for a game that, for all its hexcrawl promise, doesn't actually seem built for true sandbox play. It's more... scripted.

- C.

[Mahatatain]

1. The older versions felt much more open-ended and narrative driven - I think the older versions just felt like you could go anywhere, do anything. The sky was the limit. I don't know if it's the rules for strategic play, the hex map, the encounter cards, or the limited knowledge about what's happening in the rest of the world, but so far it feels like the new edition is slightly restricting in that regard. As a result, I'm using the world setting and more open narratives/modules of past editions.

I believe that it's the hex crawl system and the encounter cards. If you remove that and just use the v4 system with a "normal" RPG campaign where the GM has a scenario with a plot then it works really well as a game. I'm still learning the system but it feels faster in combat than previous versions of the game so that is good for me.

[kcdusk]

I just ordered T2000 v4, boxed set, from my local online supplier.

I wonder if i am able to get the electronic version of the rule and players handbooks for free Like some sites suggest.

[Targan]

I just ordered T2000 v4, boxed set, from my local online supplier.

I wonder if i am able to get the electronic version of the rule and players handbooks for free Like some sites suggest.

Moderator hat on here. Might need a little bit of clarity on what you're asking there. Obviously, any encouragement of pirating copyrighted material isn't acceptable on this forum. Or are you looking for legit means to acquire electronic versions because you already own the physical versions

[kcdusk]

on the free league site, it says if you buy the physical copy of T2K, you get a free pdf of the rule books also.

On the free league site if you buy their Alien game hard copy rulebook, you also get access to a free pdf.

By buying the hardcopy from milsims.com.au i was wondering if, similar to the free league site, you somehow get access to the free pdf of the books. I've bought local to get the item quicker and, to support local store. But by doing so i might miss out on the pdfs. I didn't know if anyone else had bought box sets (anywhere in the world) and knew if you got the free pdfs via some proof of purchase code. Or if it was only free if you purchased direct from free league website.

So, part two of your suggestion Targon. Legitimate means.

[Skunk]

...
By buying the hardcopy from milsims.com.au i was wondering if, similar to the free league site, you somehow get access to the free pdf of the books. ...

KC, you are in luck. I purchased my copy of the box set from Milsims on release day, when it was on back-order and a few days after I received an email with links to download the pdf from the Bits And Mortar site. I wasn't expecting it, so it was a nice surprise and I got to read them for a few weeks before the game arrived in Australia.
If you don't get one in the next couple of days I'd give the Milsims store a ring and inquire about it

[unipus]

Or just contact FL with your receipt and they will probably hook you up. I was able to do this with one of their other games.

[Targan]

on the free league site, it says if you buy the physical copy of T2K, you get a free pdf of the rule books also.

On the free league site if you buy their Alien game hard copy rulebook, you also get access to a free pdf.

Excellent. No probs.

[kcdusk]

Initiative. just draw cards and lowest goes first How does that sit with you

I like that it adds a level of randomness that likely exists in combat.

I don't know if i like a high ranking character drawing a high card a few turns in a row, and always going last. I thought skills and experience should count for more.

I'll need to run some small combat sessions to see how this suits me.

[Mahatatain]

Initiative. just draw cards and lowest goes first How does that sit with you

I like that it adds a level of randomness that likely exists in combat.

I don't know if i like a high ranking character drawing a high card a few turns in a row, and always going last. I thought skills and experience should count for more.

I'll need to run some small combat sessions to see how this suits me.

I'm not keen on the intiative mechanic myself as it's a rather arbitrary system. I'm trying to figure out an alternative, homebrew method myself and one thing that I'm working out how to incorporate is the Press or Hold mechanic from the V3 rules. I really liked that concept as it feels more "realistic" to me, though I must stress that I don't personally have any military experience.

Has anyone else started to try to work out an alternative initiative system to the simple card draw

[swaghauler]

I'm not keen on the intiative mechanic myself as it's a rather arbitrary system. I'm trying to figure out an alternative, homebrew method myself and one thing that I'm working out how to incorporate is the Press or Hold mechanic from the V3 rules. I really liked that concept as it feels more "realistic" to me, though I must stress that I don't personally have any military experience.

Has anyone else started to try to work out an alternative initiative system to the simple card draw

A quick and dirty method would be to roll the AGL and EMPATHY dice to represent both physical speed (AGL) and your "insight" into what the opposing party is planning to do (EMPATHY). The highest roll goes first and the lower die of the two rolled is compared when the higher dice are tied.

[knightofrubus]

I wonder if CUF might not be the better option as that kinda covers things like knowing how to handle being shot at.