4e Mechanics & Rules Discussion

[swaghauler]

I wonder if CUF might not be the better option as that kinda covers things like knowing how to handle being shot at.

My system was developed for Mutant year zero. There was no CUF in that version of the game engine and I have only done the most cursory reading of my nephew's Twilight pdf. The point is that there's nothing stopping you from substituting a characteristic roll for initiative.

[unipus]

I hate initiative rolls in most games. Replacing it with a card draw certainly hasn't improved it, and I've basically abandoned the RAW way of doing it since session two.

What I use instead is various hacks of these ideas, to T2k:

https://www.traaa.sh/no-initiative-action-for-mothership

(his list of WHY is like I wrote it myself)

And this, which is also so-simple-it's-genius:


(sorry it's so large!)

If it really comes down to it and I need to know "does X go before Y" then I do a skill or CUF roll to resolve it.

[Ursus Maior]

I don't know if i like a high ranking character drawing a high card a few turns in a row, and always going last. I thought skills and experience should count for more.

There is a specialty that let's you draw two cards, then choose on which to act. Notice: You seem to keep both, but you only act once, in either initiative slot.

It solves some of the issues of random initiative, but it creates new ones. For example, now it's really important when it's your turn to draw cards, since the pool of cards is very limited. Also, you might want to draw initiative for NPCs in groups of similar NPCs, or otherwise initiative cards will run out fast. Especially, when multiple combatants have this specialty.

[Ursus Maior]

I hate initiative rolls in most games. Replacing it with a card draw certainly hasn't improved it, and I've basically abandoned the RAW way of doing it since session two.

[IMAGE]

If it really comes down to it and I need to know "does X go before Y" then I do a skill or CUF roll to resolve it.

I certainly like that.

[Adm.Lee]

Initiative. just draw cards and lowest goes first How does that sit with you

I like that it adds a level of randomness that likely exists in combat.

I don't know if i like a high ranking character drawing a high card a few turns in a row, and always going last. I thought skills and experience should count for more.

I'll need to run some small combat sessions to see how this suits me.

I'm not fond of it, having used the full 54-card deck in Savage Worlds, and prefer that. Randomness is good, but only 10 cards seems limiting.

[Ursus Maior]

I'm not fond of it, having used the full 54-card deck in Savage Worlds, and prefer that. Randomness is good, but only 10 cards seems limiting.

I never played SW, but did Dead Lands, how does SW work, is it similar

T2K has the beauty of being simple. NPCs are supposed to be grouped into teams or squads, so they don't draw individual cards. I hope there will be another mechanic, once they do a mass skirmish system. But for now, I can live with what's available. Basically, it's 10 steps of initiative and not every step gets filled.

[Adm.Lee]

I never played SW, but did Dead Lands, how does SW work, is it similar

T2k 4e, each PC and NPC (or group) draws a card; SW same, but....

-- all are drawing from a standard deck of cards, plus Jokers, and the deck is not shuffled after every round.* Cards are dealt every round.
-- order of initiative is high card to low, Aces high, suit order is Spades-Hearts-Diamonds-Clubs.
-- you can pass your action, and you would hold your card for that.
-- Jokers are wild: someone who draws a Joker can go at anytime (don't think they can interrupt an action, I can't remember), and will have a hefty bonus to one die roll in their action. The deck is reshuffled after a Joker is drawn.
-- A rare few of the Edges can affect the initiative draw. There's one that can draw 2 cards per round, and keep whichever they choose (That's also in T2k4, I see.) There's one that allows one to keep drawing cards if their card is under 5. There's one that can trade cards between player characters. I think there are several that trigger extra benefits if that character is dealt a Joker, but I've never seen those in play.

There's probably some more options that I've forgotten, and I'm sure some of the different setting books have their own variations. I haven't actually played in 3-4 years, so I may be fuzzy on details.
I've never played Deadlands, but I think this is similar.

Again, I hadn't played in 3+ years, but the only-10-cards in the T2k4 deck left me a little cold. Maybe not enough variability, maybe I'm just missing the feel of shuffling a "normal" sized deck of cards

[Ursus Maior]

SW same, but....

I see, that's really like Deadlands then. Except in DL, some cards are also really bad.

[Spartan-117]

Moving this discussion here:

How does some guy have an A-10 to start the game and I got only 1 spare mag

[Raellus]

Starting Gear

How does some guy have an A-10 to start the game and I got only 1 spare mag

He's in the rear with the gear, and you're at the tip of the spear.

Seriously though, that's a fair question.

Starting gear in 4e: too little, too much, or just right

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[Spartan-117]

Starting gear in 4e: too little, too much, or just right
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4e = too little. 1.0/2.0/2.2 = too much. 2013 = about right. I like that personal equipment gives player's some decision and agency about how they play their character. I mean, who wants to play a medic with no aid kit, or a rifleman with no rifle.

Also, the personal equipment sacrifice rules in 2013 also bring something really cool to the game. When the RTO's radio stops an otherwise deadly round but now you ain't got no radio, that's really impactful on multiple levels.

If ultra low gear availability is part of the pre-game social contract and core campaign concept ('you POWs will start with nothing...the exception being Major Coolidge has his grand daddy's war watch in his rectum...') then fine.

But it shouldn't come down to a 1d6 roll or some random table that doesn't align well with the character concept. Like the 4e equipment table that will give your combat service support 'medic' some surgical tools and a set of basic tools (like pliers and wrenches), but no actual medical kit.

[unipus]

I do think the character gear generation in 4E is kinda flawed, or seems incomplete. The group gear section is a lot of fun and a great idea, but also could definitely use some more expansiveness. I understand they were under a pretty hard page limit but it just seems like both of those sections needed another full page and they'd be great.

But in terms of amount of core gear, and ammo, it feels mostly fine to me. I don't think a PC should be running for their lives after losing a major battle and still have 500+ rounds of ammo, etc. One thing 4E does very well through the low starting ammo allocation, and the general deadliness of the system, is encourage you to be cautious about getting into fights.

[unipus]

Also, the personal equipment sacrifice rules in 2013 also bring something really cool to the game.

What's that rule Is it as simple as "sacrifice something cool in exchange for plot armor" Who gets to decide, and when

[Spartan-117]

What's that rule Is it as simple as "sacrifice something cool in exchange for plot armor" Who gets to decide, and when

It's a Stage III optional rule on page 209.

[Rainbow Six]

4e = too little. 1.0/2.0/2.2 = too much. 2013 = about right.

Pretty much this. I always thought the 'purchase' system that the earlier versions used made zero sense. You'd end up with people trying to find ways to spend thousands of USD equivalent and 4e goes too far in the opposite direction, I presume because the design intent is to 'encourage' foraging each hex square on a map.

One thing I thought was often overlooked in games was 'the dead guy's gear.' i had a brief exposure to a 4e online game and we had a dead guy in the Bradley when we started in media res. So I said to the GM 'what about his gear What are we doing about that' And he was like 'uh, what do you mean' So I was like 'well surely the guy has gear.' And the GM was like 'we're not divvying up a dead NPC's gear.'

It seemed like a pretty reasonable request to me. I mean, I know a game where a German LRRP would probably still be stuck on the wrong side of the Vistula if they hadn't been able to use dead NPC's parkas that the GM signed off on before the start to pay the ferryman.

On a serious note I think that does give some latitude for explaining 'extra' gear. I mean, let's face it, looting the corpse is usually pretty much one of the first thing that happens whenever a PC / NPC dies in any game I've been in.