Mexican Army Sourcebook

[Targan]

I also like the idea of other Central/South American nations sending "expeditionary forces" to Mexico to assist in an offensive against the U.S.

In my campaign that is also what happened in Panama.

[Targan]

I think the Mexican version of the AMX-30 would need ERA. Without it they would never get past San Diego or El Paso. Every 16 year old kid would be punching holes in them with M72s.

Umm, I know that most parts of the US have very liberal weapons laws compared to my country but surely that statement was made in jest Are you telling me that it is easy (and affordable) for 16 year olds in Texas to get their hands on LAWs If so its a wonder Texas doesn't have more bank jobs and armoured car robberies.

[Legbreaker]

I still want to know who nuked Mexico. If the Sovs did why do the Mexicans allow division Cuba onto their soil. If the US did why hit the refineries and not military targets.

Perhaps it was the French
Although Mexico isn't now, nor is likely to ever be a military power, leaving their industry untouched after the war might lead to them being an economic competitor to France (France itself having been nuked, if not back to the stone age, at least half a century or so).
Destroying Mexico's future and it's ability to assist any other potential rivals to French power, might be something considered by elements in the French government.
With the nuclear exchanges of late 1997 as a cover, France cements their future role as a superpower....

And with France possibly selling old military equipment off to Mexico beforehand, it muddies the waters even more. The sale of such equipment is also in France's long term best interests as it potentially sets two of their rivals at each others throats reducing future pressure on France.

A little paranoid perhaps, but fits better than either Nato or the WP nuking them.

[Turboswede]

Umm, I know that most parts of the US have very liberal weapons laws compared to my country but surely that statement was made in jest Are you telling me that it is easy (and affordable) for 16 year olds in Texas to get their hands on LAWs If so its a wonder Texas doesn't have more bank jobs and armoured car robberies.

Well, assuming its 1998, the 2nd year of US involvement in the war and a year after the Nuclear exchange. The feds (civ or mil) probobly have better things to do than chase folks down for ATF violations

I was also thinking Germany at the end of WW2, they were passing out panzerfausts to 12 year olds like they were candy.

[kato13]

Perhaps it was the French

So the Mexican's in Texas are just on their way to Quebec for revenge

[pmulcahy11b]

Um, thats just funny.

Combat aircraft constituting the Mexican Air Amada, Circa 1996
10 F-5E Tiger II
2 F-5F Advanced trainers
12 AT-33s Jet trainers
12 Bell 205, 206, and 212 armed helicopters

I agree, I seriously doubt that Mexican airpower would have been decisive.

Back in the late-1980s when Northrop was still trying to market the F-20 Tigershark, the Mexicans were very interested, but the sale was blocked by both the Reagan and George HW Bush administrations. Perhaps under other circumstances it might have gone through -- such as if US aircraft manufacturers might need the export sales to finance even more advanced aircraft for the US

[Targan]

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline

Edit: Slow day at work (public holiday in my state) so I've had a bit of a look at Wikipedia's entry on the Tigershark. As far as I can tell it (and its predecessors the F-5E and F5-G) were a very good designs, quite cheap considering their performance and were very much viable but Northrop was repeatedly shafted by the policies of the Carter and subsequent administrations. So, in the T2K world might the Tigershark or something much like it have ended up being much more common in the air forces of countries allied to the USA All it would take would be for the Regan administration to have been a bit more paranoid about things like selling F-16s to Pakistan and Bob's your uncle.

[Abbott Shaull]

Umm, I know that most parts of the US have very liberal weapons laws compared to my country but surely that statement was made in jest Are you telling me that it is easy (and affordable) for 16 year olds in Texas to get their hands on LAWs If so its a wonder Texas doesn't have more bank jobs and armoured car robberies.

No just a Marine camp out of one San Diego, and Army base outside of El Paso, TX actually several post in TX where one would be able to find arms once something like this started.

Just some thoughts.

[chico20854]

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline

Edit: Slow day at work (public holiday in my state) so I've had a bit of a look at Wikipedia's entry on the Tigershark. As far as I can tell it (and its predecessors the F-5E and F5-G) were a very good designs, quite cheap considering their performance and were very much viable but Northrop was repeatedly shafted by the policies of the Carter and subsequent administrations. So, in the T2K world might the Tigershark or something much like it have ended up being much more common in the air forces of countries allied to the USA All it would take would be for the Regan administration to have been a bit more paranoid about things like selling F-16s to Pakistan and Bob's your uncle.

The DC Group has decided to put the F-20 into full scale production as an export fighter. (It is also mentioned in service in Iran in canon, in RDF sourcebook and Challenge magazine). Basically it was sold as a replacement for F-5s in service with a number of US Allies - especially China and Iran, but also Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and possibly Mexico.

It was produced at the same plants that turn out F/A-18s. As the demand from the US military for F/A-18s increases, production of F-20s is switched to facilities that were converted to military aircraft production - notably the Gulfstream business jet production plant in Savannah, Georgia and the Cessna, Lear and Beechcraft business jet plants in Wichita and Independence, Kansas.

[pmulcahy11b]

So what ended up happening with the F-20 Tigershark. I know, I could just go unleash some Google-Fu to find out but I'm confident one or more of you clever forumites will be able to tell me in a nice, concise way. And for that matter what would happen to the F-20 Tigershark in the T2K (version 1) timeline

IRL, there actually was a lot of interest in the F-20, by Mexico, some South American countries, a couple of Middle Eastern countries, and (most notably), Taiwan. And for political reasons, the US Government blocked the sales each time. Northrop ended up with no one interested in the F-20 that they could legally sell it to, and eventually stopped trying.

[Raellus]

Although I think the French weapons route is probably the most realistic, I don't think Chinese weapons should be ruled out.

Yeah, I don't think the U.S. would be too thrilled about it. They'd probably try to block it. But, the Paki's, a long-time ally in Central Asia, bought a lot of Chinese gear (tanks and aircraft) back in the '70s and '80s and the U.S. never cut them off completely (although, IIRC, they held up a shipment of F-16s for a while). If the Mexicans cut a great deal with the PRC, there's not much the U.S. could really do that wouldn't seriously harm its relationship with both parties.

Perhaps the Mexicans could have used a potential big-time arms deal with China as a way of leveraging the U.S. into making them a favorable deal on F-20 Tigersharks and M-60s and/or Stingrays (i.e. "Either cut us a good deal on your American-made gear or we'll buy what we need from the Chinese- they're offering us a real ganga."

But I still think AMX-30/40s and Mirages are the way to go to boost Mexico's conventional warfighting power prior to the invasion of the U.S.

[Benjamin]

Well, it took a little digging, but I've found the info I was looking for...and I was a bit wrong. The Mexican Civil War does not happen until 1999, after the invasion of the US. This rules the Civil War out from being the cause of the mass migration to the US.

But, the timeline in V2.2 (which I fall back upon, so long as it does not directly contradict V1 canon, since it is more detailed) states that Mexico was hit in 1997 during the first round of strategic nuclear exchanges. Also, Division Cuba does not move to Mexico until 1998, well after Mexico is it by nukes. This means that it was almost certainly the Soviets who hit the Mexican oil refineries so as to deny their use by the US. I'm of the mind that this in no way prevents Mexico from making use of Division Cuba to assist in its invasion of the US. The general populace of Mexico would not know who hit them with nukes and it is unlikely the left-leaning government would be willing to tell the truth. All that is revealed is that the Gringos are killing Mexicans along the border and the Soviets have graciously offered to lend their support in helping Mexico to regain the land stolen 150 years prior.

Bigger lies have been foisted upon people before, and given the Mexican government's efforts to distract the population with a bout of cross border adventurism it seems to fit. Also, an invasion of the US allows the coalition leftist government to get right of large elements of the regular army, an institution that has been historically conservative in Mexican politics. Of course this doesn't save the country from civil war and chaos, but there is a crazy logic to it all.

Of course 300 years down the road in 2300AD the history books may not know the truth, and people of that era may actually believe that it was the US that nuked Mexico.

Benjamin

P.S. One thing I based a whole 2300AD campaign around almost a decade ago was the canon breaking statement in the Survivors Guide to the UK that stated that NATO were the first to use tac nukes in Europe (p.8). After finding documents in one of the few remaining hidden stockpiles, the PCs were able to prove that this was French fabrication used hundreds of years ago to place war guilt upon America, Germany and Britain. It was great fun to follow the political fallout that wracked the globe...until the Kafers invaded.

[Targan]

The DC Group has decided to put the F-20 into full scale production as an export fighter. (It is also mentioned in service in Iran in canon, in RDF sourcebook and Challenge magazine). Basically it was sold as a replacement for F-5s in service with a number of US Allies - especially China and Iran, but also Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and possibly Mexico.

It was produced at the same plants that turn out F/A-18s. As the demand from the US military for F/A-18s increases, production of F-20s is switched to facilities that were converted to military aircraft production - notably the Gulfstream business jet production plant in Savannah, Georgia and the Cessna, Lear and Beechcraft business jet plants in Wichita and Independence, Kansas.

Very good. I like the work of the DC Working Group. Its been a while since I've had a proper review read through of the RDF Sourcebook and all the T2K Challenge articles so I wasn't aware that the Tigershark was mentioned there but I like what you've said Chico and so it shall be in my campaign. Thanks for the feedback.

[Legbreaker]

One thing I based a whole 2300AD campaign around almost a decade ago was the canon breaking statement in the Survivors Guide to the UK that stated that NATO were the first to use tac nukes in Europe (p.8).

You'll probably find on closer inspection that nuclear weapons were first used in the east. I'm not sure off hand if it was China or the Soviets who threw the first one, but I think it was the later.
After the war in the east was effectively won, the excess units were transfered back to the west in time to halt the NATO offensive into the Soviet Union and throw them back into Germany. NATO, in a desperate attempt to halt the oncoming juggernaut started using nukes but barely managed to slow them down a little.

The way it's written, it's a fair assumption that if Nato did not use tactical nukes in 1997, the war in Europe would have been over and done with by Christmas of that year with an almost certain Pact victory and communist control of virtually all of the continent.

France would have been left with no choice but to fight or face destruction as I doubt the rampaging communist forces would have halted at the Rhine with total and utter victory over Captialism just a few hundred miles further on...

So yes, NATO fired first in Europe, but did they really have a choice

[Targan]

It don't think Benjamin was saying that the first use of tac nukes in the entire Twilight war was in Europe. It is very clear that the nukes first flew in the eastern theatre.

As for who lobbed the first nukes in Europe I think that in light of contradictory statements in different books it comes down to either individual GM choices or (in my case) going with the consensus view of the wise and well read folks from this forum.

I do take your point Leggy about tac nukes in Europe stopped the Soviets where had nukes not been used so extensively the Soviets might well have rolled right through Europe.