Weapons Timelines for the Twilight War

[pmulcahy11b]

The CAW seems like a really cool solution in search of a problem. Outside of RPGs and video games, the full auto shotgun just hasn't really caught on. It's not surgical and precise enough to appeal to many SOF types, it's not range effective enough to be a general service weapon, and really it's not much more effective (when you consider recoil) even at shotgun ranges than an assault rifle on auto.

CAW-type weapons are very effective in one type of combat -- CQB. And that's assuming that you won't have to worry about possible civilian casualties or people you are trying to rescue that are in the same room. It's a weapon that has a very narrow range of applications, however -- it presents the problem that you will probably have to carry more than one type of longarm, and that CAW-type shotgun is a heavy weapon with heavy, low-capacity magazines and heavy ammunition. In addition, you have the weird ammo problem again -- most such weapons can't reliably feed conventional shotgun ammunition and require metal-cased shotgun rounds. (The Pancor Jackhammer is an example of a way around the ammo problem -- but it's also a rather bulky weapon with very bulky ammunition cassettes.)

[Raellus]

Yes, even American gangsters didn't field the Thompson in anywhere the numbers that the movies would have you believe. Neither did the FBI or Treasury Service. The widespread use of the Thompson before World War 2 was largely a Hollywood invention.

According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

I agree with Horse Soldier about the AKMR. You might as well manufacture a new, updgraded AKM than rechamber existing stocks of 7.62mm S AKs. In fact, the Russians have been doing so since the early '90s. It's called the AK-103.

Once again, everything that I've read suggests that W. Germany was ready to go ahead with the G11 program right up until the point where the Berlin Wall came down. The economic burden of absorbing the former E. Germany, coupled with the disappearance of the threat posed by the old USSR/Warsaw Pact, led to the cancellation of the relatively expensive G11. Since the reunified Germany still had a need for a new, standard assault rifle, HK developed the 5.56mm G36.

So, in the T2K v1.0 timeline, the G11 would have entered full production for front-line W. German units, while the G41 would have entered production for reservist units.

[headquarters]

G-11

I also read that the thawing of east west relations lead to budget cuts that buried the G-11 project .Technically it was pretty much ready to go .In a T2K world the same budget trouble might also end it though - if the cost of changing the old system with the new one seems to high in war time it would be shelved

According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

I agree with Horse Soldier about the AKMR. You might as well manufacture a new, updgraded AKM than rechamber existing stocks of 7.62mm S AKs. In fact, the Russians have been doing so since the early '90s. It's called the AK-103.

Once again, everything that I've read suggests that W. Germany was ready to go ahead with the G11 program right up until the point where the Berlin Wall came down. The economic burden of absorbing the former E. Germany, coupled with the disappearance of the threat posed by the old USSR/Warsaw Pact, led to the cancellation of the relatively expensive G11. Since the reunified Germany still had a need for a new, standard assault rifle, HK developed the 5.56mm G36.

So, in the T2K v1.0 timeline, the G11 would have entered full production for front-line W. German units, while the G41 would have entered production for reservist units.

[HorseSoldier]

I also read that the thawing of east west relations lead to budget cuts that buried the G-11 project .Technically it was pretty much ready to go .In a T2K world the same budget trouble might also end it though - if the cost of changing the old system with the new one seems to high in war time it would be shelved

Or if it was just entering service when the war kicked off, especially if any teething problems presented themselves as often happens when you hand troops new kit, it might have been set aside in favor of proven designs that work.

[Legbreaker]

With regard to 4.7mm cls production, should the G11 have been fielded as I believe it would have been in V1.0, production of ammunition would have been a high priority and numerous facilities set up to do it. By the late 80's/early 90's all the ammo problems had been solved - the specs could have been distributed to the production facilities and within a short time hundreds of thousands of prepackaged rounds churned out for military consumption.

[Raellus]

With regard to 4.7mm cls production, should the G11 have been fielded as I believe it would have been in V1.0, production of ammunition would have been a high priority and numerous facilities set up to do it. By the late 80's/early 90's all the ammo problems had been solved - the specs could have been distributed to the production facilities and within a short time hundreds of thousands of prepackaged rounds churned out for military consumption.

Yes, but after the TDM, production of the more complex and tricky to manufacture caseless ammo would have all but ceased entirely, and the G11 would rapidly be abandoned in favor of old stockpiles of G3s and more recently produced G41s.

IRL, during the planned production of the G11, the G41 was to be produced as well, to equip territorial and reserve formations, while the G3 was to be phased out of service entirely (although I'm sure a few thousand would be kept on hand for use as designated marksman's rifles or for use by special forces).

In the Twilight War timeline (v1.0, of course), the G11 would probably become an expensive club in early-to-mid '98.

Then there's the matter of former DDR troops. How many would retain their East German-made AKMs/AK-74 clones How many would be equipped with G41s or G3s But we've discussed/debated that elsewhere.

[Legbreaker]

I do agree that after 1997 production will be minimal at best (perhaps a tech or two from a bombed factory salvaged enough equipment to produce a case a week), but up until mid to late 1997, hundreds of thousands of rounds would be produced in muliple locations every week. Some small stocks of ammunition would still exist though even in 2000, however these are likely to be in rear areas and closely hoarded - you won't see very much released for use on the front lines!

I see the east german forces retaining the weapons they had prior to reunification in the V1.0 timeline. There just isn't the time or facilities available to completely re-arm them on much more than an individual basis. As the war drags on though a mix of weapons are likely to be picked up as in other units of other nationalities, however the vast majority of troops will still be armed with the same weapons they started out with (or replaced with something similar).

In addition to a lack of available weapons to issue to the DDR, there's the training problem to overcome - a G3, G41, etc is a different animal to an AK and muscle memory takes time to develop. Also, I believe the tactics of the east Germans was somewhat different to the west and the issued weapons were designed with this in mind.

Effectively you'd have to retrain the DDR troops in virtually everything, not just weapon handling - this takes time which wasn't available in V1.0.

V2.x on the other hand with it's much earlier reunification makes retaining an easier task to accomplish.

[Rainbow Six]

Yes, but after the TDM, production of the more complex and tricky to manufacture caseless ammo would have all but ceased entirely, and the G11 would rapidly be abandoned in favor of old stockpiles of G3s and more recently produced G41s.

That was always the way I interpreted the G11 as it was described in the original V1 boxed set - by the year 2000 the weapon itself may not actually be that rare (relatively speaking) but the ammunition is.

[Raellus]

I agree that most former DDR troops would retain their Soviet/Pact-made weapons. I wonder how the Germans would handle weapons logistics for mixed/merged units combining West and former East German troops.

As for G11 ammo, I'm sure that the Germans would have manufactured millions of rounds before the nuclear strikes/TDM effectively shut down their advanced munitions factories. However, modern armies go through ammo like it's toilet paper. I can't remember the exact figure but the U.S. army expended like 10,000 rounds of small arms ammo for every confirmed VC/NVA KIA. To some degree, modern western armies have improved this ratio (and you can make wisecracks about American marksmanship) but the fact remains that caseless ammo for the G11 would be used up at a frantic rate and, by 2000, there would be very little, if any, left. Nearly all German troops would be using G3s, G41s, and AKs.

[95th Rifleman]

There was a very good reason why they came up with a NATO standard in the first place.

Take us Brits for instance, a British soldier can pick up an M-16 magazine and use it with an L85 as both weapons use the same amo and are compatible with each other's magazines. The whole principle behind NATO standardisation was so that eveybody could supply everybody else.

In a situation like the twilight war, this standardisation would go a long way to keep units operational. A wild-card weapon like the G-11 would rapisly dissappear due to how damned complicated it is. Especialy when ad-hoc formations comprising different nationalities become more and more common.

[dragoon500ly]

Hey, Kalashnikov was a tanker sergeant -- DATs don't even know one end of a rifle from the other!

What's there to compare....I mean, if you had the choice of inflicting massive amounts of damage with a 120mm smoothbore, finishing off your near helpless prey with a Ma Deuce and a pair of M-240s or cranking out 5.56mm from some rinky-dink Mighty Mattel....why would you need a rifle

[dragoon500ly]

[QUOTE=Raellus;22333]According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.[QUOTE]

What a lot of people forget is that many of the gangs actually used M1918 Browning Auto Rifles stolen from NG armories, or purchased. There is a photo of Bonny & Clyde for example that shows part of their arsenal on the hood of their car, including no less than four BARs. Dillinger is another one that used the BAR...

[95th Rifleman]

[QUOTE=dragoon500ly;33787][QUOTE=Raellus;22333]According to the book Public Enemies (on which the film of the same name is based), the Thompson was used in some numbers by many of the bank robbing gangs (Dillinger's, Floyds, Nelsons, Bonnie & Clyde, etc.) and the fledgling FBI. The book was well researched and written and I have no cause to doubt what the author described is not accurate.

What a lot of people forget is that many of the gangs actually used M1918 Browning Auto Rifles stolen from NG armories, or purchased. There is a photo of Bonny & Clyde for example that shows part of their arsenal on the hood of their car, including no less than four BARs. Dillinger is another one that used the BAR...

The Tommy gun looked good, it's undeniably one of the most impressive looking weapons of the era. Image goes a long way in crime, we see it today in inner-city gangs who try to promote the image that they are bigger, more bad-ass than the other guys. As a result the Tommy became the "poster boy" for proabition criminals. You point it at the other guy and hope intimidation does the job because no professional criminal wants to actualy kill someone as it adds time to any prison sentence and you run a greater risk that the cops will shoot to kil rather than risk their own lives taking you in.

The BAR was a superior weapon, this thing was a killer and criminals who didn't give a damn about consequences (such as bonnie and clyde) used such weapons because they enjoyed killing.

This is why the more public criminals had tommy guns and also why it's become associated with the era.

[Panther Al]

For what its worth, my mothers father did some work for Al C. in Chicago back in the day. When he died (Committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head with 3 different weapons, handcuffing himself to the steering wheel of a car, and driving real fast off of a dock in Miami, according to the local PD - No joke!) he owned 4 BAR's, and no Tommy guns. According to friends of the family that knew him I am told that by and large they felt the BAR was the way to go, the Tommy was nothing but show for people who wasn't man enough to handle a real rifle.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

For what its worth, my mothers father did some work for Al C. in Chicago back in the day. When he died (Committed suicide by shooting himself in the back of the head with 3 different weapons, handcuffing himself to the steering wheel of a car, and driving real fast off of a dock in Miami, according to the local PD - No joke!) he owned 4 BAR's, and no Tommy guns. According to friends of the family that knew him I am told that by and large they felt the BAR was the way to go, the Tommy was nothing but show for people who wasn't man enough to handle a real rifle.

OT
While I certainly am NOT trying to demean or condone his death (really that should be 'his murder'), I find a strangely ironic sense of the poetic in this only for one reason.
In your sig you have the line "Never use finesse when force works."