Poland After OMEGA

[Abbott Shaull]

Back on topic, I'm putting together a map of unit locations in Poland during the winter of 2000-2001.

The U.S. XI Corps controls a good chunk of NW Poland. Not far from this enclave is the town of Pila, listed as the seat of the "Polish Free Congress". This PFC controls a couple of Polish military units, including a fairly powerful MRD.

AKAIK, the PFC is not described in detail anywhere. Due to its physical proximity to XI Corps' redoubt, I think its fairly safe to assume that a cooperative relationship between the two entities (i.e. that it is pro-western/anti-Soviet).

Did I miss something. Do any of you know of any canonical references to this PFC

The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

[Legbreaker]

So basically the PFC is little more than a Nato propaganda tool, or puppet at best....

[Rainbow Six]

The PFC was formed in 1997 when NATO moved into Poland. Lot of the members of this government were the remains of the Polish Government in Exile that has/was based in London since WWII even though it was recognized as such since the end of WWII due to treaties, IIRC. It one of the those things if you not specifically looking for it, was easy to overlook.

Either way it was an organization that NATO propped up and inserted inside Poland during the Offensive and it remained in Poland after the withdraw being supported by NATO and their special operation units and intel networks. I don't think they worked well with the Germans though. As for working with French, it will be 50-50 chance especially if I am correct and they were based in London.

Wikipedia has a page on the Polish Government in Exile. Must confess that whilst I was aware it had existed during WW2, I'd no idea it carried on after the end of the War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile

Sounds like it was a fairly low key organisation even during the Cold War...

On another matter, anyone given any thought to what influence the Pope might play IRL John Paul II didn't die until 2005, so may still be alive in the T2K timeline - I've always liked the idea of him being offered sanctuary in either France or Switzerland.

I'd have thought that having the support of John Paul II would be a huge boost for any faction in Poland. Even those who don't have any support (such as King Julian) might claim that they did have the Pope's backing as a way to increase their popularity.

Presumably it wouldn't be too difficult to produce forged letters, get a tame Priest, dress him in Cardinal's robes and produce him to the people, where he says that he has come from wherever the Pope happens to be with a message from the Holy Father recognising Julian (or whoever) as the legitimate ruler of Poland...

[Adm.Lee]

Pope John Paul II

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.

[Raellus]

Perhaps the Pope spoke out actively against Poland's involvement in the USSR's war against China or supported Polish exiles after the war began in Europe. Perhaps the Soviet government pressed newly allied Italy to turn the Polish pope over or perhaps the church hierarchy feared a KGB or GRU assassination plot, either aided or abetted by the Italian government. Perhaps the KGB approached some cardinals who wanted to depose the Pope and install someone more to their liking and promised to help get him out of the way. Either way, the Pope and his aides decided it would be safer to move their operations to neutral Switzerland.

[Raellus]

Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies Could their "abandonment" have been a political move

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

[Legbreaker]

WWIII is a mess.

It's a conflict involving far more than just two sides. For example, just because Italy is fighting Nato doesn't mean they're allied to the Soviets and in fact I wouldn't be suprised if Pact forces and the Italians were put into the same room, there'd be bloodshed (or at least harsh words).

This is one of the issues facing Nato when they chose to run the Greek blockade and deliver badly needed supplies to Turkey in 97. Suddenly the war in central Europe was on two fronts against two seperate and essentially unassociated enemies.

[pmulcahy11b]

Where he is depends on the Italian government, mostly. A pope going into France has a really, really bad precedent (look up anti-pope, Avignon, etc.), but Switzerland is possible, if he felt he had to leave Rome. It doesn't seem like something he would do, though.

I do agree, having the Pope's (or even a Cardinal's) blessing would be HUGE for a Polish ruler-to-be. Someone missing from Krakow would be the Archbishop there-- in the days of the monarchy, the Primate would stand in for the King between the death of one and the election of the next.

Given the anti-Communist stance of the Polish Church, I suspect once the war started, the Polish government cracked down on the church pretty hard, driving the hierarchy and parish priests into hiding or prison. I bet many of the warlords emerging (Julian, Krakow, PFC, etc.) would re-open churches as soon as possible, to gain loyalty of the people.


Re: the Polish Free Congress: I didn't think there was anything linking them to the WW2 Government in Exile, but I could be wrong. Given the relative power levels and living conditions of France and Britain in 2000-01, it could be easy for the French to win some or all of the London element to come to Paris.

Don't forget his health -- by (IRL) 2000, John Paul IIs Parkinson's Syndrome was quite advanced, though being hidden as much as possible by his colleagues. There could actually be a return to the Europe of days past, when armed conflict broke out over who was or would be Pope, and more than one person claiming to be Pope, each with their own screaming, gun-waving followers.

[Raellus]

I'm working on my operational map for Poland during the winter of 2000-2001 again and I thought I'd resurrect this thread instead of starting another.

Back to U.S. XI Corps. Why do you think SACEUR gave up hope of recovering them during OMEGA I understand that XI Corps may have had good reason to stay put but those divisions represent significant combat power and it seems odd that the architects of Omega would just write them off.

Could the XI Corps have expressed CivGov sympathies Could their "abandonment" have been a political move

The presence of the Polish Free Congress in nearby Pila could be a clue. MilGov was essentially abandoning the PFC to its own devices. What if CivGov made the PFC an offer of direct assistance. Perhaps CivGov saw an opportunity to maintain a military presence in Europe. XI Corps plus the Polish forces loyal to the PFC could create a relatively powerful, pro-western, pro-CivGov enclave in NW Poland- an American bridgehead in Europe, of sorts.

Going Home states that "The XI Corps was cut off from higher headquarters after the Pact counteroffensive of July, and has remained in its positions out of necessity rather than by choice. It has been written off by USAEUR. The XI US Corps HQ staff is currently wintering in Kolobrzeg, Poland, along with the remnants of the 50th US AD. As of the beginning of the adventure, word of the evacuation has just arrived. Most of the Corps' personnel will decide to remain in place rather than risk the journey to Bremerhaven." (Going Home, p. 14)

This suggests that powerful Pact forces stand between XI Corps and Bremerhaven prior to and during Operation Omega. However, no Pact forces in Going Home or any other canonical source list any Pact forces in that area. It's a straight shot from Kolobrzeg west into Germany, with absolutely no enemy forces standing in the way.

What gives Where and what is the ghost PACT army that's standing in the way of XI Corps and Bremerhaven Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation

I have a slightly non-canonical explanation (see the embedded post quote above) but I'm wondering what if ya'll can come up with another plausible explanation.

[Legbreaker]

The German III Corps offensive, specifically what happened to XI Corps is one of my pet projects.
http://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpt=354 has a long and detailed discussion.

The XI Corp is cut off from friendly forces not so much by the Soviets as by the terrain oe the Oder river and numerous interconnected lakes form a water barrier from Szczecin to the Baltic. The Corp is still in contact by sea with Germany, but any move to rejoin allied forces would require an offensive against Pact divisions to the south and east of the irradiated ruins of Szczecin. Some supply is possible by available shipping, but there is not enough capacity remaining after the spring debacle to withdraw even a small part of the Corp. Port facilities are likewise limited with most supplies having to be brought directly onto the beaches by small boat.

My comments reposted above are about the most logical explaination I've been able to come up with - terrain is the main enemy although some Pact presence in the form of patrols (in addition to the lack of necessary equipment and materials) prohibits XI Corp from trying to rebuild crossing points.
Individuals and small units (up to say plattoon size) can be transfered back and forth by sea, but to evacuate the Corps would require many months and the abandonment of all heavy equipment (anything that can't be manhandled onto a small boat).

Travel by land would require a unit to push south as far as Berlin (perhaps even beyond) and almost certainly into contact with hostile forces. XI Corp also doesn't have the fuel, nor ammunition required to mount any sort of serious offensive action to clear their path.

[Snake Eyes]

Is there another explanation for XI Corp's decision to stay behind in Poland instead of participating in the evacuation

One current trend in discourse around these parts would point to the Corps HQ being staffed with an overabundance of brass, the majority of whom of course could not be reasonably expected to find their own assholes with both hands and a flashlight.

[Abbott Shaull]

I really believe it was all due to the timing of things. Remember it was already late June maybe even July when this went to hell for the XI Corps. Given it location in Poland, and being that they were no longer in contact with NATO lines. Maybe the higher commands realized that the XI Corps had other more pressing issues. Like securing food and shelter for the troops until plan to extract them could be developed and acted upon.

The NATO had been caught completely by surprise how fast the the Soviets were able to move the 22nd Cavalry and 4th Guards Tank Armies. At this time when they were closing in on the 5th Mechanized Division it was only then that the XI Corps Commander faced a hard chose. The 5th was too far south and out on it own. The 8th had equally went out on it own. As the Third German Army and III German Corps started to pull back. The Corps commander was left with hard choice. If he withdrew it would mean 3/4 of his command would be either destroyed or isolated.

If he broke contract with the III German Corps and consolidated the remains of his Corps and hope bits and pieces of the 5th and 8th would make their way back to the Corps. At about this time from NATO Supreme Commander on down to at least Corps level HQs realized the 4th Guards Tanks Army, may have been for something else. The 22nd Cavalry Army well it could be debated either way if they were part of the planned offensive or if they meant to do other operations.

What many Divisional and Corps/Army Commanders had already knew on both sides was any extensive Offensive would led to units effective fighting themselves into non-existence. For NATO the break down wasn't as complete, but with the lot of the Fourth US Army deciding to stay put to help the Germans. While other units had decided to stay in parts of Germany for other reasons.

On the Pact side you see several Front HQ and Army HQ ceasing to exist as they were absorbed into Division. Those that still existed had very few units still responding to them. The exception were units in Austria that really didn't get into the fighting during the Spring/Summer, and those few units of the 4th Soviet Guard Tank Army. Many of the Soviet Divisional Commanders if not higher HQ Commanders were already making plans to go home come in 2001. Much like the US Army, Europe and the UK Army of the Rhine had decide after the 2000 Offensive. They realize continuing the war just because no one was willing to give the order to quit.

For the Soviet Divisional Commanders it was hard decision. Either they can withdraw and lose control of their combat force as bits and pieces split off to do their own thing. Or stay put and try to rebuild where ever they were and use what they could do to help rebuild in their locality as part of new emerging governments.

I see the US XI Corps Commander has to worry about moving heavy equipment and once they got back to NATO lines, how would they NATO Command fit the units. At best his unit would be push to some area that wasn't prepared for the Corps. Worse his command would be split up, since he lost 2 Division.

Either way if he made it back to NATO lines he would lose his job, even if events happen so fast that everything was out of his control when it was realized the Soviet were mounting a major counter-offensive. So I think it was the fact he was looking to save what was left of his combat forces. He knew that if he stay where he was he could get the Corps organized and set up for the coming winter. If he did it correctly and not alienate the local Polish population he may be able to keep things together and working with them improve everyone situation.

Many of the Polish units that had declared for the Polish Free Congress had only done so after the fighting had settled down. Those that had remain loyal to the Pact probably had done so due to the closeness of Soviet commands, yet again many of the Soviet commands were crumbling too. Even a Division of the 22nd Cavalry Army had defected en-mass during the counter-offensive.

By July 2000 almost everyone realize that fighting the old war was pointless. They all had started to think about either rebuilding where they were or making their way home. The only place where the fighting was still going on limited was the Middle East. Even there it still small affair of raids. The Third Army wasn't in no shape to push the Soviet Armies out of Iran. By the same token the Soviet Front in Iran line of communication threatened at best due to various mutinies along their supply line knew their was very little they could do. They were in the same position of the US XI Corps. It was better to consolidate and hope for improvement.

[sglancy12]

France and Poland have history that the Poles remember as being good for Poland, this may motivate them to initiate and/or accept talks with France especially with France playing no part in NATO operations.

Damn. You totally beat me to the punch Cynic. Now all I can do is pretend to be smart by commenting on your smartness.

Nice catch about the Polish National Anthem mentioning Napoleon. That's news to me.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Damn. You totally beat me to the punch Cynic. Now all I can do is pretend to be smart by commenting on your smartness.

Nice catch about the Polish National Anthem mentioning Napoleon. That's news to me.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

Thank you for the compliment
Basically I'm a trivia whore I like accumulating all those random bits and pieces of information and while I can't usually give specific details like exact dates and so on, I remember enough info to use it as a 'head start' into the topic (particularly useful as a quick leap for doing a web search) or to see some of the links from the various smaller things into the 'big picture'.

[Adm.Lee]

In addition to being cut off by terrain and (potential) Pact forces, I'll stick to my opinion that the XI US Corps leadership is influenced by the Polish Free Congress representatives that are with them. The PFC is still trying to win over nearby Polish forces, despite their failure to do much before the offensive. In addition, the "loss of contact" implies to me that after the III German Corps broke contact, the Americans lost faith in their higher-ups. If we further assume some kind of communications breakdown (loss of radios or codes or whatever), then they are truly out of contact.

Where they are, the remainder of XI Corps can try to make the best of a bad situation. Every other NATO unit that's tried to leave their position (5th Mech, 8th Mech, even III Corps) has been driven back or swallowed up by the Pact forces all around. I can certainly see why they want to hunker down for the foreseeable future.