Poland After OMEGA

[Abbott Shaull]

In addition to being cut off by terrain and (potential) Pact forces, I'll stick to my opinion that the XI US Corps leadership is influenced by the Polish Free Congress representatives that are with them. The PFC is still trying to win over nearby Polish forces, despite their failure to do much before the offensive. In addition, the "loss of contact" implies to me that after the III German Corps broke contact, the Americans lost faith in their higher-ups. If we further assume some kind of communications breakdown (loss of radios or codes or whatever), then they are truly out of contact.

Where they are, the remainder of XI Corps can try to make the best of a bad situation. Every other NATO unit that's tried to leave their position (5th Mech, 8th Mech, even III Corps) has been driven back or swallowed up by the Pact forces all around. I can certainly see why they want to hunker down for the foreseeable future.

Yeah then throw into the account that the UK and other US units are leaving front line positions after things settle down so to evacuate home. It would be enough to make any Commander to think twice about stirring up a hornet nest again. No sense of giving the Soviet any more reason to move more units.

[Legbreaker]

I don't see the PFC being much of an influence on the XI Corp at all. What can they really offer the Corp that they either don't have already, or can simply reach out and take

[Raellus]

I don't see the PFC being much of an influence on the XI Corp at all. What can they really offer the Corp that they either don't have already, or can simply reach out and take

They're stronger together. An adversarial relationship will only harm both parties. Their respective territories are adjacent if not overlapphing. They are both hostile to the Soviets and their lackeys. It would be quite odd, IMHO, if they chose not to work closely together.

[Raellus]

I don't buy the "geography" explanation. As the crow flies, the XI is really not all that far from Bremerhaven. Quite a few of the American units listed as "in transit" to the evac point are travelling much greater distances (from Austria, for example) in order to get there. Even if the various river bridges between the Kolobrzeg region and Bremerhaven were down, the XI should include adequate engineer and bridging units to get the bulk of the Corps' men, if not its vehicles, across. I don't see hanging on to their AFVs as being an issue as OMEGA dictates that they be left behind anyway. They could simply be driven to the nearest uncrossable river and scuttled.

Furthermore, the Danish Jutland division somehow made it home. They were listed as being in NW Poland with the XI Corps in the summer but, by Going Home, they have successfully made the journey back to Denmark. Didn't some German units attached to or working alongside the XI Corps also return to German after the failure of the summer offensive If they can make it that far W, why can't the remainder of the Corps

There's got to be some other factor/s keeping the XI Corps en situ during OMEGA.

The NATO had been caught completely by surprise how fast the the Soviets were able to move the 22nd Cavalry and 4th Guards Tank Armies. At this time when they were closing in on the 5th Mechanized Division it was only then that the XI Corps Commander faced a hard chose. The 5th was too far south and out on it own. The 8th had equally went out on it own. As the Third German Army and III German Corps started to pull back. The Corps commander was left with hard choice. If he withdrew it would mean 3/4 of his command would be either destroyed or isolated.

This is an interesting point, Abbott, and one that I hadn't considered. There may some merit to it. I wondering though, would the Corps commander risk the remainder of his command being stranded indefinitely in Poland in the hope that the bulk of the 5th and 8th IDs return By the time the OMEGA orders are issued, he must have received enough intel to have reached the conclusion that the 5th was all but annihilated. The 8th might be in better shape, but why strand several divisions to wait for only one Once again, there's got to be something else going on.

It might be a bit of an intellectual copout, but perhaps all of the factors identified so far are in play. Perhaps a more holistic explanation incorporating geography, fraternity, politics, and logistics is in order.

Another idea- forgive me if it's been mentioned previously- supporting the notion that XI Corps' decision to stay in Poland is, at least in part, voluntary is that XI Corps has invested so much time and energy into developing its cantonments in NW Poland, that many of the men have put down roots there and simply don't want to leave. Assuming the various components of XI Corps have been stationed/operating in NW Poland since at least the Spring of 2000, it's possible that there's a sense of belonging/ownership has developed. Perhaps, when given the choice between a long and difficult forced march west, over difficult terrain (geography), to face a long and dangerous ocean voyage back to a devastated country that many of them haven't seen in 2-3 (or more) years, or a relatively safe, well supplied cantonment in a place they've lived and fought in for nearly as long, many men decided on the latter option. Perhaps some of the men have married local women and possibly even started families there

If the men of XI Corps feel that they have a personal stake in NW Poland, then it stands to reason that they cooperate with the PFC and those former PA units loyal to it.

[helbent4]

They're stronger together. An adversarial relationship will only harm both parties. Their respective territories are adjacent if not overlapphing. They are both hostile to the Soviet's and their lackeys. It would be odd, IMHO, if they chose not to work together.

Rae,

I would agree, the military benefits are obvious. An ally would at least protect your flank, if nothing else. The PFC needs all the friends it can get, and XI Corps are natural allies.

Politically, there are benefits for the PFC, if they can work out a polite fiction the XI Corps is there at their behest and that they retain sovereign control over the combined territory. This is much how foreign recognition enhances the legitimacy of a government.

On XI Corp's side, they would actually derive some benefit themselves from the arrangement. If nothing else, they are less likely to be treated as hostile occupiers. (Not impossible but at least less likely.) They would have translators at the least, at best if the PFC administers their territory on behalf of the Free Polish government they wouldn't have to take that responsibility on themselves. At least at the time of "Going Home", XI Corps is not planning on staying permanently so there's little to gain by exercising direct controlling Polish territory if there's someone willing to administer it for them.

I think you'd at least see direct liaisons between HQs with the exchange of officers, with regular communications established.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

The point about the Danes is a good one, however I believe that can be explained fairly simply.

The Danes were held in reserve by the XI Corps and were therefore further west at the time the Corp came under threat of being cut off. The bulk of the Corp was in fact spread out over a very wide area - the 5th ID down to the southeast, 8th disappeared over the eastern horizon and the 2nd Marines stretched over the Vistula delta.
If you follow my assessment of the offensive, the entire Corps was short on fuel due to loss of shipping capacity in the Baltic (this loss of shipping also helps explain why the Corps can't be evacuated by sea).

The Danes however were probably the link unit between the US/Canadians and the Germans. They were able to squeeze back into Germany before the route was cut by the advancing Pact forces - the remainder of the Corp too crippled by the fuel shortage to move fast enough (and the Marines still spread across numerous rivers).

Although crippled by the lack of fuel, the XI Corps still posed enough of a challenge defensively to deter the Pact forces from pressing against their enclave in an attempt to push them into the sea - the XI Corp still possessed much of the ammunition, food and other stores gathered over the preceeding months, even years for their intended offensive operations.

[Raellus]

The point about the Danes is a good one, however I believe that can be explained fairly simply.

The Danes were held in reserve by the XI Corps and were therefore further west at the time the Corp came under threat of being cut off. The bulk of the Corp was in fact spread out over a very wide area - the 5th ID down to the southeast, 8th disappeared over the eastern horizon and the 2nd Marines stretched over the Vistula delta.

If you follow my assessment of the offensive, the entire Corps was short on fuel due to loss of shipping capacity in the Baltic (this loss of shipping also helps explain why the Corps can't be evacuated by sea).

The Danes however were probably the link unit between the US/Canadians and the Germans. They were able to squeeze back into Germany before the route was cut by the advancing Pact forces - the remainder of the Corp too crippled by the fuel shortage to move fast enough (and the Marines still spread across numerous rivers).

Although crippled by the lack of fuel, the XI Corps still posed enough of a challenge defensively to deter the Pact forces from pressing against their enclave in an attempt to push them into the sea - the XI Corp still possessed much of the ammunition, food and other stores gathered over the preceeding months, even years for their intended offensive operations.

It makes sense, and I'm tempted to buy in, but, who are these advancing Pact forces Where did they go Why aren't they still between the remainder of XI Corps (the "trapped" bits) and Bremerhaven when OMEGA gets under way. There's nothing listed in that area in Going Home. If there are no enemy forces between their cantonments and Bremerhaven, why can't the elements of XI Corps just walk west Several units in Germany are listed as legging it towards the evac point, so it's not unprecendented. A fuel shortage explains, in large part, the ultimate failure of the Summer XI Corps offensive but it doesn't explain the failure of XI Corps to evacuate northern Poland in the fall. The fuel issue, at the time Omega is unveiled, is kind of moot. Like I said before, if XI Corps is out of gas, why wouldn't it just scuttle its tanks in place and hoof it

If the answer is enemy forces to the west, where are they If they're not strong enough to merit a mention in any of the canonical sources, then they shouldn't be much of an obstacle to a powerful NATO Corps.

If the widely scattered 2nd MarDiv can reassemble and return to its cantonment by the time the OMEGA orders come down- fuel shortages and everything- why can't it continue west There are hostile Pact forces at several points along the Baltic Coast and elements of the 2nd MarDiv would presumably had to have fought through a couple of those as well to reassemble at its fall cantonment. If they could do that, why couldn't the entire XI Corps break out to the west

I really wish we could get an original developers explanation for why XI Corps stays behind in Poland.

[sglancy12]

I'm just going to say this so that we can acknowledge it and move back to the process of trying to force sense out of why XI Corps would just sit on its hands and watching TF 34 sail over the horizon.

This is a continuity error. Plain and simple.The writer claims IX Corp is cut off by Pact Forces and then failed to position any Pact Forces to do the job. Just an oversight.

Now, back to the RetCon.

A. Scott Glancy, President TCCorp, dba Pagan Publishing

[Raellus]

I'm just going to say this so that we can acknowledge it and move back to the process of trying to force sense out of why XI Corps would just sit on its hands and watching TF 34 sail over the horizon.

This is a continuity error. Plain and simple.The writer claims IX Corp is cut off by Pact Forces and then failed to position any Pact Forces to do the job. Just an oversight.

Now, back to the RetCon.

So, the RetCon is to place a PACT Corps between U.S. XI Corps and German III Corps I'm game.

[Abbott Shaull]

There were some Polish Troops, also there may have been rumors of Soviet troops moving north which some did during the counter offensive. Granted after the bulk of the one Polish Army more or less switch sides and several of the rest of the Polish army units making the consideration.

Now the real trick is how whatever Governments reclaim control of Germany and Poland do get along. The III German Corps withdrawing wouldn't make many friends with the Poles. The Poles in all aspect wouldn't really be too friendly to the UK or the French either. They were both part of the selling them out to the Soviets, even though the French were along for the ride at that point.

So even with large Pro-NATO in northern Poland. The government would not really trust the Germans who they felt started the war to begin with. UK would be trusted but within reason, they did after all allow the Government-in-Exile to continue to function in London even after they handed Poland to the Soviets. France it saving grace is the long history of alliances at times when the Polish were free against the various common enemies (ie Germans, Austria-Hungarian Empire, Russia) in the pass and they pulled out of the NATO and didn't actively take part in the what they would of seen as the German led invasion during WWIII.

As for the French being able to provide aid, well they will certainly have agents all over Europe. Them and Isreal will have several agents at the various large power centers in Central and Eastern Europe trying to make sure that only the ones they supported would eventual rule over these regions.

As for real physical help, for Poland at least they will stay away at least Northern Poland. Southern Poland would be pretty much cut off from formal help from the French, unless the France would be willing to use their Air Force to send aid. Two reason with troop on the Rhine region of Germany and not being in NATO, these two countries are more or less in undeclared war. France is in no position to slug it out with a weaken German Army and lay claim to more devastated areas.

Not only that the French would be interested in standing up the other Baltic State and other regions of Europe back on the path of stabilization. For nothing else to make sure they don't have to spread out their already spread out force.

[Legbreaker]

The XI Corps, at least the Canadians, 50th AD and 2nd Marines, is still a very strong formation. Writing off that firepower isn't somethng ANYONE is going to do lightly, even if it's preventing large scale evacuation.
As I've proposed, some transportation is available between XI Corps and the remainder of Nato, which would allow the transfer of individuals between them. Some from XI may wish to go home, while, as we know from Going Home, many other US troops chose, for various reasons, to stay - these people may choose to move into XI Corps AO.

The thought may be that with approximately 1/4 of US manpower staying in Europe, a second evacuation may occur in the following months. While waiting for this to be organised, XI could have been distilling fuel for a breakout to the south and west, taking with them absolutely TRUCKLOADS of vehicles, ammunition and other stores, all vital to either the Germans, or US recovery.

I do agree that there should be a Pact blocking force in place. I agree that the lack of such is either an oversight, misprint, or misinformation. The players should NEVER know exactly where the enemy is unless they've personally laid eyes on them. Leaving an obvious gap on the BYB map (and in the other books) could be construed as a part of this vagueness.

It is my personal belief that the map of unit locations in the 2.x book, cannot be taken as gospel - a fair indication perhaps, but I believe that during writing of all versions, the developers were a little pressed for time and this is one of the things they overlooked.

[Abbott Shaull]

The XI Corps, at least the Canadians, 50th AD and 2nd Marines, is still a very strong formation. Writing off that firepower isn't somethng ANYONE is going to do lightly, even if it's preventing large scale evacuation.
As I've proposed, some transportation is available between XI Corps and the remainder of Nato, which would allow the transfer of individuals between them. Some from XI may wish to go home, while, as we know from Going Home, many other US troops chose, for various reasons, to stay - these people may choose to move into XI Corps AO.

The thought may be that with approximately 1/4 of US manpower staying in Europe, a second evacuation may occur in the following months. While waiting for this to be organised, XI could have been distilling fuel for a breakout to the south and west, taking with them absolutely TRUCKLOADS of vehicles, ammunition and other stores, all vital to either the Germans, or US recovery.

I believe those other than the XI Corps have chosen to stay. Of course, there will be this unit or that missed the boat, but for the large part units like the one Brigade from the 44th Armor Division and 11th Armor Cavalry Regiment stayed for various reason. One was to get power plant operation and set up their own kingdom if not use it as resource for the coming 'power' struggles, while the other returned to the region it was deployed before the war (which didn't make sense in the overall picture of things, but hey it was their story) that some in the unit still had ties too. The rest of the units of the US 7th and 4th Army and the other Corps that had been attached to a German Army that had stayed had done so in order to help the Germans rebuild.

If there was 2nd evacuation it would for the US XI Corp assuming that Northern Poland did stay with NATO.

As for the Corps staying, these units have learned what the Armies of Centuries past had already known. Once summer has past, it was time to start to preparing winter quarters. This would include setting up a Corps Supply Base, Divisional Supply, and Brigade/Regimental Supply Bases and then setting up the various Battalions, Squadrons, Companies, and Troops in an array to control the Corps XI as well as train local militia and police units.

IF the Corps decide to move, there was no way know for sure they would make it. No one in Germany would of been able to absorb and the pain in ass to realign units to give XI Corps a part of the line or place it in reserve. It would mean the Corps would have to start from scratch if they were placed in reserve and pissing off the local population when they realize their food stores would have to be shared with their new neighbors. Or much worse the Corps and the units they displace would have to build up, not from scratch, but the confusion during this time would lend itself where units would be more prone to Pact attack/raids.

I think it was probably the hardest choice that was made with the Supreme Commander, US Army, Europe Commander, and US XI Corps Commander and their HQs already having access these questions. Not know how loyal the newly NATO flagged Poles would be and if they would mind the units they had previous been fighting month ago would let their former enemy free passage too. Beside the unknown of the fighting effectiveness of the Soviet units moved north to replace the Polish units that were fighting the 3rd German Army during the offensive and the run away 5th and 8th US Mechanized Divisions.

[Legbreaker]

A second evac would indeed have to be aimed mainly at extracting the XI Corp, however those units which stayed to assist in rebuilding would surely find a berth available also.
A second evac would be much smaller than Omega and require a lot less resources. It's also presumable that the Nato commanders acknowledged the war was effectively over in September/October 2000 or else they probably wouldn't have authorised Omega. By Spring 2001, there may be enough Pact units withdrawn to allow XI Corp a decent chance too.

[helbent4]

I'm just going to say this so that we can acknowledge it and move back to the process of trying to force sense out of why XI Corps would just sit on its hands and watching TF 34 sail over the horizon.

This is a continuity error. Plain and simple.The writer claims IX Corp is cut off by Pact Forces and then failed to position any Pact Forces to do the job. Just an oversight.

Now, back to the RetCon.

Scott,

Part of the retcon could be that XI Corps feared there were PacWar forces in between them and Bremerhaven. Given the state of intelligence gathering, it's possible that they mistook the position of real PacWar forces or the blocking force is completely imaginary.

Tony

[Rainbow Six]

This is probably a bit out of the box, but from time to time I've thought about the possibility of XI Corps "catching a lift" with the BAOR when it returns to the UK.

My thinking (which I haven't gone into in any great detail as it's not something that I would use myself*) is something along the lines of HMG offering space to XI Corps on the ships sent to bring the BAOR back to the UK (possibly with whatever AFV's and heavy equipment they can get to Bremerhaven); the British might even be able to send ships right into the Baltic to pick them up.

In return for this XI Corps would then assist HMG in restoring order in the UK (and considerable assistance that would be - it would I think virtually double the manpower available to HMG). The last part of the deal would involve HMG supplying transport for XI Corps to ultimately return to the US (and Canada) some time towards the end of 2001 (Of course I'm sure anyone that wanted to stay in the UK would be made quite welcome...). Again, this would be with whatever AFV's etc they had brought with them from Europe, so there is a long term benefit there for (presumably) Milgov. Also saves Milgov having to arrange a second evacuation.

So...really just a random thought...XI Corps get a ride home courtesy of the British Government late in 2001 in exchange for six months of peacekeeping in the UK..

(*Main reason I wouldn't use it as I think that having such a large body of reasonably well equipped and experienced troops available would heavily tilt the balance of power in favour of HMG and mean that law and order would be restored much quicker, which I don't think would be conducive to decent RP'ing opportunities - for example I don't think the Duke of Cornwall or any of the separatist Governments would stand much of a chance against them)