British Army Equipment in the Later Twilight War

[helbent4]

FN USA has built a version of the M240, which I believe is in limited issue now, which has a good portion of the steel parts replaced by lighter titanium. It's on my pages, and it's a lot lighter than a standard M240.

Paul,

In addition, I believe improved components from the Canadian C6 GPMG (licence-built MAG-58) were used to upgrade US-made M240s to extend their service life prior to introducing titanium parts.

Tony

[Legbreaker]

As most probably know, I carried the M60 during most of my service. I carried it more like a rifle, a hand on the pistolgrip and the other on the forestock - the carry handle was used only in non-tactical situations.

One of the other machinegunners in my plattoon went so far on one exercise as to remove the bipod completely from the weapon. Although this obviously reduced accuracy and stability for longer ranges, he was certainly strong enough to manage it (built like an ox!). The spare barrel retained the bipod though enabling longer ranged fire after a quick change (he had an excellent No2 so this only took a few moments - sooo jealous!)
It had the advantage that in poor light conditions, it was often mistaken as a rifle and so the "enemy" paid less attention to him than they would have otherwise (machineguns are prime targets to take out as are grenadiers and commanders).

[HorseSoldier]

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

For most anything else, though, I'll take a 240 over a 60 every time.

[helbent4]

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

HS,

A GPMG can't be good at everything, I guess that's why they have SAWs!

Tony

[HorseSoldier]

Unrelated to T2K L85s, but I see the in real life the MoD is switching over to MagPul E-Mags. If the HK mags supplied for the L85A2 are anything like the ones we got issued a few years back that'll be a huge improvement, both in terms of weight and durability.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

The M60 is definitely a better design than the MAG/M240 for being up and moving in an assault, though neither is as good as a PK in that respect.

For most anything else, though, I'll take a 240 over a 60 every time.

Personally I believe that the MAG58 is superior in almost all respects to the M60 but the M60 is easier to carry and wield. As for the PK, I've found it has similar carry characteristics as the MAG58 but worse for me, having been trained on left-hand feed MGs (M60, MAG58, L3A3) the right-hand feed of the PK is a bit difficult to get used to

[Ironside]

Sorry to be such a time before posting my second draft; real life getting in the way. As far as I can determine by the mid 1980s the 25pdr was for cermonial use only. With great regret, I've left them out. As always any and all comments and criticisms welcome.

British Army Equipment During the Later Twilight War

The British Army has never been a particularly visible part of British society, outside of garrison towns, except during a major war; so many minor wars and actions have taken place that there is no authoritative list of them. During 'peacetime', e.g. when military actions and casualties are not front page news, equipment for the army is not a priority. The British Army has learned therefore to avoid throwing anything away if they can possibly help it. Obsolete or surplus equipment can be found squirreled away in obscure stores and depots which proved a great boon to the British Army during the Twilight War.

Artillery is a huge consumer of ammunition; no commander in modern history has ever had enough smoke for instance. When the 155mm ammunition began to run short old 5.5" guns were taken from storage and the School of Artillery Trials Unit to make use of the large stocks of 5.5" ammunition remaining in storage. The 51mm mortar L10 was designed from the outset to be able to use the extensive stocks of 2 inch mortar ammunition still in store.

Although MBTs became rarer on the battlefield, anti-tank capability was still most important. As the supply of MILAN missiles dwindled the BAT Wombat L6 returned to the fray. Likewise, instead of the LAW 80, the 84mm 'Carl Gustav' was brought back into service; to the severe disgruntlement of those tasked with carrying it's 14.2kg empty weight!

The armoured units would have been in direr straits without the Chieftains of the war reserve; some of them with the Chieftain/Challenger Rearmament programme, some without. As the Integrated Fire Control System of the Chieftains wore out or failed, the old L21A1 Ranging Machine Guns were replaced in turrets originally designed for them, making such tanks great assets. Even the remaining 1950's vintage Saracen and Saladin armoured cars were used to great effect.

In the field of small arms, the L85 was supplemented by the L1A1 Self Loading Rifle and the L86 by the L4A4 Bren gun to the great joy of many, as the post Gulf War Fault Rectification Program had not nearly been completed by the start of the Twilight War.

Even the webbing equipment of the late war British soldier benefited from the institutional hoarding tendency of the British Army. Modern webbing was almost replaced by '58, '44 and even '37 pattern webbing by war's end. The previously loathed Boot DMS that let down the British so badly in the Falklands was welcomed as much better than no boot at all, when no more Boots, High Combat were to be had. The steel helmet Mk V had never been completely replaced by the GRP helmet, some Home Service Force personnel were issued with them during the Russo – Chinese phase of the Twilight War. Subsequently the Mk V helmet became a much more common sight. Contrary to popular belief, the WWII style Mk II helmets seen in England were not WWII vintage, but were manufactured in Oxford* from original dies discovered in a Regimental Museum basement!

I'll be adding soft-skin vehicles next; I'm waiting for a reference book to arrive.


*I'm not following canon for the British Isle, I much prefer Rainbow Six's take on it. I hope he doesn't mind.

Ironside

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Fair enough although the material for the HAC indicated that it last used the 25-pdr (besides ceremonial duties) on a field exercise on Salisbury Plain in 1992

[Rainbow Six]

*I'm not following canon for the British Isle, I much prefer Rainbow Six's take on it. I hope he doesn't mind.

Ironside

Ironside, I don't mind at all. Feel free to use any parts of my material that you like - that's what it's there for and I'm glad you like it and that it's being used.

(Just as an FYI I am working on an updated version of my timeline at the moment - there aren't any major changes (it's more by way of tidying up a few bits I wasn't entirely happy about in the original), although HMG presence in the north east has ended up weaker - basically Catterick remains in Government hands but the troops have had to withdraw from Newcastle, Sunderland, etc. I'm also working on the US presence in East Anglia, which was probably the weakest part of the original material.)

Re: the 25 pounders, I would say that if you do want to include them it's probably not stretching credibility too far to suggest that there might have been a small number in storage at Larkhill

Cheers

Dave

[Ironside]

Fair enough although the material for the HAC indicated that it last used the 25-pdr (besides ceremonial duties) on a field exercise on Salisbury Plain in 1992

Ah, I didn't know that. I still wonder about the ammunition supply for wartime use though. Any thoughts

@ Rainbow Six I am working on something for East Anglia as it's where I live. I do think that the Gipping/Stour estuary would be targetted during the anti-infrastructure nuclear exchange. As the port of Felixtowe became the UK's largest container port in 1980 (3rd largest in Europe) and with the port of Harwich on the other side of a quite narrow gap I think it would be an obvious target.

[Legbreaker]

My thoughts re the 25 pounders is that they are likely to have been brought back into use, those that still exist in working order anyway.
There may not be a lot of prewar 25 pdr ammo laying about, but that's far simplier to produce than whole new 105mm guns.

[Ironside]

I do agree with you Legbreaker that 25pdr ammunition is simpler to manufacture, and I would like to see the 25pdrs back in action. That does brings up a question I have wondered a lot about. How much ammunition is being manufactured Particularly artillery ammunition.

[Legbreaker]

Well, HE and a number of other types of ammo were being produced a hundred years ago in what we today term as extremely primative factories so I imagine that provided the materials are available, and the knowledge, tools and manpower necessary, it should be feasible to turn out a usable quantity of shells in Organised areas.

The earlier, simplier weapons probably have the advantage over modern weapons with their high tech ammo too in that all a gun really needs (whether it be a .22 right up to monster artillery piece) is a projectile of some type and a charge to push it. As already stated in this thread, there's almost certainly been a return to early 20th century anti-tank weapons like the 6 pdr gun. I don't know that recoiless weapons would be as widespread though due to the increased complexity of the round.

Unguided rockets would be useful weapons too for artillery purposes. Precision goes out the window of course, but if all the gun tubes are worn out, it's better than throwing rocks....

[LBraden]

I keep seeing a lot of "oh this in storage" well, what about world war II

"They are making these new fighters in every piano factory and garden shed in the country" -- quote from Goering, and realistically, if the "Excrement has hit the oscillating device", YES the British have the ability to do that. so no matter how old or bad the equipment is, we will pull it, and even now, I can assure you that a lot of the people will do that, or become marauders and will quickly find the wrong end of "country justice".

So really, after "Damn it, no more tea" day, the UK will radically change, but I can say with both knowledge of late 80's and current day (if following 2013), realistically, the UK could rebuild something of a cottage industry of munitions.

[Legbreaker]

The problem I see is that in the early 20th century there were a lot more people employed in manual jobs. In the latter decade or two of the century (and even more so now) technology and automation has taken over.
This lack of hands on experience could cause a few issues once the power is no longer supplied and all the computer driven machinery has taken EMP damage.
It's by no means a deal breaker, but I can see significant delays in retooling compared to those that may have been faced a hundred years earlier.