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  • #76
    The Light Tank Concept, at least the US view

    Mulling over things, in between coffee breaks, I got to thinking about the light tank. Now in the US Army, we like our tanks to be big and heavy and equipped with large caliber guns and all kinds of electronic doo-dads. But I keep coming back to the light tank. It offers all kinds of advantages when you sit down and think about it. To be sure, it doesn't have heavy armor, but it can be more strategically portable than a M-1. Prior to the intro of the 120mm smoothbore, the US was developing a series of improved 105mm shells that were as capable as the 120mm, and in at least two cases, bloody well out performed the 120mm!

    Now a bit of background...the first "official" light tank other than the WWI French FT would be the M-3 Stuart, now before anyone bursts a bubble, the M-2 series of combat cars were never considered to be light tanks, simply because they were the only tanks that we had in the pre-World War II era. The Stuart is the best example of a light tank, well armored for its weight, a lovely horsepower to weight ratio and for its period, adequate armament. Too bad that it was thrown into combat against vehicles that were a generation ahead of its design. Its 37mm main armament quickly proved to be lacking in fire power.

    The M-3 Stuart was replaced with the M-5 Stuart; this improvement used a newly designed hull to delete some of the numerous shot traps of the M-3s design, but kept pretty much the same turret and armament. The designers of the M-5 ignored reports coming back from the front about how inadequate the 37mm cannon had become. This was the developmental end of the Stuart.

    Next out of factory was the first true advance, the M-24 Chaffee light tank. For its weight, it was adequately armored, horsepower-to-weight ratio was not as high as it could have been, but the main gun was now the 75mm cannon (it was the same cannon mounted in the B-25J medium bomber). The problem with the armament was that by the introduction of the M-24 (1945), the 75mm had pretty much lived out its developmental lifespan. The Korean War proved to be the undoing of the M-24, although I believe that this was due more to the tank being thrown up against the T-34/85 tank than any design flaw. Norway upgunned its M-24s with a 90mm and by all reports are still quite happy with the design.

    The next and last US light tank was the M-41 Walker Bulldog. Lightly armored for its weight, it had excellent horsepower-to-weight and was armed with the 76mm cannon. The Bulldog didn't last long in US service as the decision was being made to go with the Main Battle Tank concept. The Bulldog served in several armies, but its moment of fame came in the Vietnam War where it equipped several companies of the ARVN. It proved to be a reliable, nimble design and several PT-76s and T-54/55s of the PAVN were destroyed prior to the fall of South Vietnam.

    A few years ago, a design for a light tank was pushed. Called the M-8 Buford Mobile Gun System, it was an intresting concept. It was air-portable. Its armor could be beefed up by adding additional armor panels to met three basic threat levels. It had an excellent horsepower-to-weight ratio and was equipped with the 105mm rifled cannon. The initial tests of the M-8 showed it to be a capable design, but alas! It fell prey to the next round of budget cutbacks. Something about a Congressman needing a bridge in Alaska.

    GDW also pushed something they called the LAV-75, didn't exist, even as a design concept, but its armament was in development. The 75mm gun was coupled to an autoloader that allowed the weapon to fire 10 rounds in the time it took you to read this sentence. Impressive, no The drawback to the 75mm gun was the same one that doomed the older 75mm in WWII, armor penetration was for shit. What good did it do to hit a T-62 ten times if none of the rounds penetrated That was pretty much the end of the 75mm gun concept.

    A light tank in the US Army...nowdays we have a Stryker with a 105mm gun that the service is trying to fix (recoil is such a b***h!). A light tank battalion could be attached to the airborne/air assault/light infantry divisions and give them some badly needed firepower. The divisional cavalry squadrons could also use a light tank design. Just some random musings!
    The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
      Please! I'm still trying to forget Grenada!!!! There is nothing like trying to plan a military operation from a tourist guide book map of the island!
      It was a little better than that. One of the staffies somewhere had actually visited, and written his Staff College paper on how to invade it. I agree, though, the execution was sub-par.
      My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post

        GDW also pushed something they called the LAV-75, didn't exist, even as a design concept, but its armament was in development. The 75mm gun was coupled to an autoloader that allowed the weapon to fire 10 rounds in the time it took you to read this sentence. Impressive, no The drawback to the 75mm gun was the same one that doomed the older 75mm in WWII, armor penetration was for shit. What good did it do to hit a T-62 ten times if none of the rounds penetrated That was pretty much the end of the 75mm gun concept.
        Are you sure it's the same 75mm I figured it was the same 75mm statted from the Scorpion and/or AMX. The Sherman's 75mm was a low-velocity thing, designed by an artillery-experienced ordnance team. According to "Steel coffins", they wanted a barrel that could last 2,000 shots before wearing out, but experience showed that tanks didn't last that long.
        My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

        Comment


        • #79
          A couple of things, back in the day Armour Magazine had a bit about the M41's true claim to fame: the ARVN army wound up with a company actually pulling off an true air assault. From what I recall, a coup was being run in Siagon, and per policy the US did nothing. But the word was slow in reaching Cahm Ram Bay, where a ARVN company did get word and asked the Air Force for lift for an "purely administrative" move. They said yes, and the moment the tanks arrived they started lighting up those that was backing the coup located on the airbase before rolling into the city.

          The second is one (and yes, I do sound like a broken record at times ) is back way earlier I mentioned the CV90 series as a potential replacement for all the armoured vehicles in a cav regiment, one of the options is either a 105 or a 120 nato gun armed light tank version. Not a bad thing in my view.
          Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon.

          Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
            Mulling over things, in between coffee breaks, I got to thinking about the light tank. Now in the US Army, we like our tanks to be big and heavy and equipped with large caliber guns and all kinds of electronic doo-dads. But I keep coming back to the light tank. It offers all kinds of advantages when you sit down and think about it. To be sure, it doesn't have heavy armor, but it can be more strategically portable than a M-1. Prior to the intro of the 120mm smoothbore, the US was developing a series of improved 105mm shells that were as capable as the 120mm, and in at least two cases, bloody well out performed the 120mm!

            Now a bit of background...the first "official" light tank other than the WWI French FT would be the M-3 Stuart, now before anyone bursts a bubble, the M-2 series of combat cars were never considered to be light tanks, simply because they were the only tanks that we had in the pre-World War II era. The Stuart is the best example of a light tank, well armored for its weight, a lovely horsepower to weight ratio and for its period, adequate armament. Too bad that it was thrown into combat against vehicles that were a generation ahead of its design. Its 37mm main armament quickly proved to be lacking in fire power.

            The M-3 Stuart was replaced with the M-5 Stuart; this improvement used a newly designed hull to delete some of the numerous shot traps of the M-3s design, but kept pretty much the same turret and armament. The designers of the M-5 ignored reports coming back from the front about how inadequate the 37mm cannon had become. This was the developmental end of the Stuart.

            Next out of factory was the first true advance, the M-24 Chaffee light tank. For its weight, it was adequately armored, horsepower-to-weight ratio was not as high as it could have been, but the main gun was now the 75mm cannon (it was the same cannon mounted in the B-25J medium bomber). The problem with the armament was that by the introduction of the M-24 (1945), the 75mm had pretty much lived out its developmental lifespan. The Korean War proved to be the undoing of the M-24, although I believe that this was due more to the tank being thrown up against the T-34/85 tank than any design flaw. Norway upgunned its M-24s with a 90mm and by all reports are still quite happy with the design.

            The next and last US light tank was the M-41 Walker Bulldog. Lightly armored for its weight, it had excellent horsepower-to-weight and was armed with the 76mm cannon. The Bulldog didn't last long in US service as the decision was being made to go with the Main Battle Tank concept. The Bulldog served in several armies, but its moment of fame came in the Vietnam War where it equipped several companies of the ARVN. It proved to be a reliable, nimble design and several PT-76s and T-54/55s of the PAVN were destroyed prior to the fall of South Vietnam.

            A few years ago, a design for a light tank was pushed. Called the M-8 Buford Mobile Gun System, it was an intresting concept. It was air-portable. Its armor could be beefed up by adding additional armor panels to met three basic threat levels. It had an excellent horsepower-to-weight ratio and was equipped with the 105mm rifled cannon. The initial tests of the M-8 showed it to be a capable design, but alas! It fell prey to the next round of budget cutbacks. Something about a Congressman needing a bridge in Alaska.

            GDW also pushed something they called the LAV-75, didn't exist, even as a design concept, but its armament was in development. The 75mm gun was coupled to an autoloader that allowed the weapon to fire 10 rounds in the time it took you to read this sentence. Impressive, no The drawback to the 75mm gun was the same one that doomed the older 75mm in WWII, armor penetration was for shit. What good did it do to hit a T-62 ten times if none of the rounds penetrated That was pretty much the end of the 75mm gun concept.

            A light tank in the US Army...nowdays we have a Stryker with a 105mm gun that the service is trying to fix (recoil is such a b***h!). A light tank battalion could be attached to the airborne/air assault/light infantry divisions and give them some badly needed firepower. The divisional cavalry squadrons could also use a light tank design. Just some random musings!
            The LAV75 did actually exist - it was known as the Ares Light Tank.

            I am actually working on this and I've put my draft thoughts on. Sorry it's not as polished as usual.
            Attached Files

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Adm.Lee View Post
              Are you sure it's the same 75mm I figured it was the same 75mm statted from the Scorpion and/or AMX. The Sherman's 75mm was a low-velocity thing, designed by an artillery-experienced ordnance team. According to "Steel coffins", they wanted a barrel that could last 2,000 shots before wearing out, but experience showed that tanks didn't last that long.
              It wasn't the same 75 as the mounted on the sherman, just shared the same caliber. It officially was a 75mm, 65-caliber. A shorter version was marketed for a time by AIRES Corps as the AIRES 75...the great selling point was the auto loader. The Scorpion mounted a short-barrelled 76mm, but the Brits used HESH, HE, Smoke and Canister and ignored the AP round. The AMX-13 75mm gun was a near copy of the 75mm used on the Panther.

              The Sherman short-barrelled 75mm was designed to meet then current Armored Corps doctrine which held that tanks were not to be used to destroy other tanks, that was the sole preserve of the tank destroyer corps. So when the Sherman went into combat from El Alemain forward, it found itself serously outgunned by the Mark IV, Panther, Tiger, King Tiger combo. It was only when the Sherman was upgunned to the 76mm that it had any chance of taking on the Germans...and even then, it was seriously outgunned.
              The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by James Langham View Post
                The LAV75 did actually exist - it was known as the Ares Light Tank.

                I am actually working on this and I've put my draft thoughts on. Sorry it's not as polished as usual.
                Information I've got states that the Ares was developed as a show case for their 75mm gun system. The vehicle itself was never turned over to the military for testing and that total production only came to 3-4 vehicles. Their gun was actually turned over to Aberdeen Proving Grounds for testing where it impressed everybody with its high rate of fire, until it was tested on tank hulls and failed to penetrate the old M-47 hull that was used. And the final saw was that the gun failed to penetrate the armor...and that was the end of that discussion.

                Ever since then, the discussion has been using a gun of no less than 90mm. Not that the budget people will discuss a light tank.
                The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                Comment


                • #83
                  the LAV- 75 was the US Army's " High Survivability Test Vehicle Light " it was armed with the Ares corps hyper velocity automatic cannon XM274. it had a 12.5 mile range, armor penetration is listed as 350mm at 2000m with APFSDS. It can fire a three round burst. Excessive heat transfer and barrel erosion was a major drawback.
                  "There is only one tactical principal which is not subject to change. It is to use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."
                  --General George S. Patton, Jr.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Yes a good Light Tank would be a good start to give the 10th Mountain, 82nd Airborne, and 101st Airborne Divisions some extra fire power. It wouldn't be bad to see some to go to the Airborne Brigade with the 25th Infantry and the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

                    These could also be used in the Stryker Brigades too. To help add some effective fire power so that they don't have to rely on 105 mounted Stryker and hope if they fire over the side that they don't roll over...

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Dog 6 View Post
                      the LAV- 75 was the US Army's " High Survivability Test Vehicle Light " it was armed with the Ares corps hyper velocity automatic cannon XM274. it had a 12.5 mile range, armor penetration is listed as 350mm at 2000m with APFSDS. It can fire a three round burst. Excessive heat transfer and barrel erosion was a major drawback.
                      Now the Armor Journal articles I'm looking over state that the APFSDS rounds failed to penetrate the armor on the target vehicle, citing "the shattering of the penetrator on impact as well as the complete failure of other test rounds to penetrate more than 2cm. Failure of the auto-loader in sustained fire, excessive heat damage to the components as well as several breech explosions, again due to the heat. The Ares gun never achieved its designers expectations.

                      As for the High Survivability Test Vehicle Light, there were 18 designs submitted for that, none of which entered US service. You have to remember that defense contractors come up with multiple designs and try to sell to the military, it is possible to see the same mock-up turret design on multiple hulls, it really depends on what can be cheaply modified by the contractor.

                      Just one example is a Bradley that was modified to mount a 30m high, boom in place of the troop compartment, you simply opened the over head hatch, raised the boom and activated its sensor package. The "eyeball" mounted CCTV, thermal sights, laser rangefinder and a laser designator. The theory is that the Brad would set up in back in the woods, out of sight, raise the eyeball to scan for targets and designate for Hellfire and Copperhead then retract the boom and move back before the Soviets could figure out were it was. Five were actually built and displayed at various arms shows and around several military bases. There are plenty of pics of the vehicle and at least one book that identifed it as Bradley variant that was entering service. It never entered service, and in point of fact, was never purchased or requested by the US Army. The "LAV-75" falls into this category of vehicle. It was a design concept that failed the early testing process.
                      The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Abbott Shaull View Post
                        Yes a good Light Tank would be a good start to give the 10th Mountain, 82nd Airborne, and 101st Airborne Divisions some extra fire power. It wouldn't be bad to see some to go to the Airborne Brigade with the 25th Infantry and the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

                        These could also be used in the Stryker Brigades too. To help add some effective fire power so that they don't have to rely on 105 mounted Stryker and hope if they fire over the side that they don't roll over...
                        Just flipping through a copy of Jane's Armored Fighting Vehicles shows serveral decent designs:

                        The Austrain SK-105 Kurassier design; combat weight weight of 17,700kg, armed with the 105mm cannon and with a road speed of 70km/hr and a range of 500km

                        The Swedish Ikv-91; combat weight of 16,300kg, armed with a 90mm cannon; a road spd of 65km/hr and a range of 500km

                        The UK Scorpion/Scimitar/Sabre; combat weight of 8,073kg, armed with a 76mm cannon (30mm autocannon); a road spd of 80km/hr and a range of 644km

                        The Cadillac Gage Stingray; combat weight of 21,205kg, armed with the 105mm cannon; road spd of 67km/hr with a range of 483km

                        The Swedish CV-90; combat weight of 22,800kg, armed with a a 105mm or 120mm cannon, road spd of 70km/hr, range of 500km

                        The Cadillac Gage ASV-150; combat weight 13,408kg, armed with a 90mm cannon, road spd of 100km/hr, range of 708km

                        These are just a few that I pulled out. There are other designs like the South African Ratel and Rooikat designs that I like...but its enough to give you an idea.
                        The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          The South African Rookiat is a good example of how its done. Has a relatively low profile, wide tyres, a wide wheelbase, fast and long ranged. Armour is a little better than the Stryker, but most importantly, they did an outstanding job of keeping bloat away. Has a 76mm because its all they need, nor does it have tons of electronics, and has a 360 degree firing arc- even with the 105 version. Its honestly my favourite armoured scout car out there.
                          Member of the Bofors fan club! The M1911 of automatic cannon.

                          Proud fan(atic) of the CV90 Series.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            How many of these A/C designs were tested in the pre-Stryker run-up I recall being told that there were a lot (2 dozen) of foreign & domestic vehicles collected, and each turned over to a team of NCOs to run through their paces.
                            My Twilight claim to fame: I ran "Allegheny Uprising" at Allegheny College, spring of 1988.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Adm.Lee View Post
                              How many of these A/C designs were tested in the pre-Stryker run-up I recall being told that there were a lot (2 dozen) of foreign & domestic vehicles collected, and each turned over to a team of NCOs to run through their paces.
                              There were a lot of US designs and 5-7 foreign designs. But from almost the beginning of the tests, all you heard about was how great the Stryker was.

                              In these tests, there is a very high if-its-not invented-here-its-no-good.
                              The reason that the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices chaos on a daily basis.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by dragoon500ly View Post
                                There were a lot of US designs and 5-7 foreign designs. But from almost the beginning of the tests, all you heard about was how great the Stryker was.

                                In these tests, there is a very high if-its-not invented-here-its-no-good.
                                Sounds like when they tested and later fielded the M16. Then the M4 trials. Seems their minds were already made up...

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