a bit of politics and history?

[Nowhere Man 1966]

If your SUV had been a diesel you would have been able to run it on vegetable oil. Your car would have simply smell like french fries.

True. The thing is that I never heard of any Ford Explorer diesel models, I don't think they ever made one. I know for a while, there were some diesel cars here in the U.S., Volkswagen made them, I remember a diesel Rabbit (I think they are called Golf in Europe) and General Motors made some diesels too, some Chevy's, Oldsmobiles, and even Cadillacs.

Chuck M.

[jester]

Jeep and Ford are working on a diesel model, they have been talking about it for a year, a diesel SUV.

Volkswagen did make several diesel models,

A Jetta, one of their little pickups, the Golf

Audi made a diesel

BMW and Mercedes

Nissan Sentra had a couple models

Even a little Mitsubishi pickup had a diesel model

Those are the ones off the top of my head.

And now with the alternative energy comming up, they are working on several diesel passenger cars, light trucks and SUVs, then again they may just be doing it for public relations.

However, in California, they made it illegal to sell new diesel cars here, although you can bring in used ones. Go figure. What a joke, yes they belch out smoke, but that is just look, diesel engines burn almost 90% of the fuel, whereas gas engines burn about 1/3 of the fuel, so which one polutes more One you just don't see it which in my view makes it worse.

[Mohoender]

Actually Ford Explorer Diesel remain a ghost car on second hand websites. . You'll find plenty just to learn there is none.

Most car makers have diesel models has they are selling them in Europe. Isn't the Army Hummvee a diesel Does California regulation mean that California national guard cannot buy them

About polution they polute differently. Gasoline is throwing more CO2 in the atmosphere while diesel is rejecting more micro particules (favoring athma, for exemple). In fact, Gasoline helps warming the atmosphere while diesel helps cooling it up. I used to buy the expensive diesel (with less sulfur...) but, since I learned that, I went back to the regular more poluting one (I don't have athma but suffer from heat). Sorry about others.

[jester]

California National Guard have an exemption as they are government, and we all know government can make the rules but they do not have to follow them.

And they allow for large diesel trucks to be sold as those are comerical vehicles. So, comercial is okay but not the common man.

But, there is another way around this silly rule. If the vehicle is registered as an alternative fuel vehicle then it is allowed, thus tell them you drive on biodiesel, and you even get a tax reduction.

So many silly people making laws that they know nothing about.

[Targan]

Here in Australia vehicles that Americans call SUVs are nearly all diesel, mainly for reasons of fuel economy. The profligate waste of petrol that Americans seem to have favoured for decades and decades is a bit bewildering to most Australians. Sorry if this causes offence but the way that America has churned through so much of the world's oil as if it was an infinite resource has always struck me as being incredibly selfish.

[jester]

We "Americans" Targan Think about this. It is the auto industry not the American people. The industry does as it pleases reguardless of what the people deamnd. And the industry is geared for production of gasoline, they will not change in any meaningful ways beyond paying lipservice whch is more of a PR stunt and to gain tax credits.

Jeep and others have said they would do a biodisel Jeep, and other vehicles would be fuel efficient but, the only places one sees them is in demostrantions and in their catalogues or online.

Remember the auto industry was a giant, and they are dwindling but still have power. They are dinosaurs, and dinosaurs are loath to change.

Other examples, the hybrid vehicles, the electic vehicles, the fuel cells, I have seen them I have seen the signs all over the highways for the electric vehicles, but they were short lived and no one could own an electric car, you could only lease one. They lasted for a short time and were then taken back by the manufacturer and we haven't seen them since.

The auto industry is as corupt in my view as the tobacco companies.

An example, that is correct, and illsutrated in two ethics courses I have taken as well as a moviem, the one with that matt daymond I think who plays a genius I think.

"The auto industry does studies for vehicle defects."

They weigh the cost between a recall or refit verses the damage they will have to pay out in wrongful death or personal injuries. And if the cost is less to pay off people killed or injured because of a defective product, then they will continue to let it be defective, even though they know it to be wrong and dangeorus and it could prevent future injury.


And that is the American and I would venture to guess the worlds auto industries. The world of big buisness does not always do what is right. I personaly don't expect it of them. And that is the way of mos buisness, screw the little guy and doing what is right, do what is right for the corporation.

Oh good, this is the political forum so I am safe for my rant.

But, did you get my point I hope I wasn't too confusing.

[kato13]

IMHO It is really simple. Until now there has been absolutely no economic incentive for non gasoline vehicles for either producers or consumers. Oil is a nearly perfect source of energy. It is portable, stable, cheap (until recently) and very energy dense.

If you can get if for a low price, why not. No country, company, or individual will completely sacrifice their self interest for an undetermined long term benefit of everyone else. If saving oil for the long term is so important are Norway, The UK, Saudi Arabia, Nigeria, Russia, and Argentina selfish for selling it.

Oil is not running out now or in the near term and you know what, humanity will deal with dwindling supplies by conserving, and replacing it with new technology, because that is what the market and basic human greed will dictate.

The US has made bad decisions in ignoring coal and nuclear power, but there was no compelling economic reason to do so until now. Solar will increase, as will wind and in our lifetime fusion will be a reality. Personally I feel that butanol from agricultural waste is the 20 year solution to gasoline. It will be able to replace gasoline without the economic hardship of changing the gasoline infrastructure, as it is highly likely that most late model cars can run on 100% butanol safely with no modifications.

Interesting read and another possibility for fuel in the T2k world. Wow I got us back on topic for the forum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butanol_fuel

[Mohoender]

Jest

I'm not that sure they do as they please. Actually yes until situation changes and I think you all already said this. This is the case right now and, of course, that is valid for individuals too. Most people don't care about mother earth, they just feel concerned about the amount of money in their bank account (Count me among them).

Howerver, Europeans are less trusty than Americans and we might not revert to our old habits. As a result, car manufacturers are changing their models fast (surprisingly fast in fact). They have to, we don't buy them anymore and everyone is reducing their oil consumption: something like -20% for car sell and -10% for fuel consumption (impressive also). We can't drive fast anymore, therefore, we buy simpler, slower cars. Give me a Porsche and I'll drive between 180-200 miles/hr. I can't, then, I don't buy it (still I love that car, and their SUV is gorgeous).

Funny, that the smallest car around my place is a chevy (except for a few japanese ones).

By the way I have heard that gasoline price in U.S. is currently about 4$ (may be more) a gallon. If that is true, it means that ours is no more or even less expensive than yours. Think of it, we had about a 20-30% increase over the last 7-8 years, U.S. had live through a 100% increase in the same time (about 300-400% over the past 15 years). Bad time for american cars. Americans will be thinking about it.

One last thing, How is it to live in the Newest Socialist Country (with all that state money sent into banks) Don't you fear of being renamed Socialist Union of Northern America (S.U.N.A.)

[headquarters]

Jest

I'm not that sure they do as they please. Actually yes until situation changes and I think you all already said this. This is the case right now and, of course, that is valid for individuals too. Most people don't care about mother earth, they just feel concerned about the amount of money in their bank account (Count me among them).

Howerver, Europeans are less trusty than Americans and we might not revert to our old habits. As a result, car manufacturers are changing their models fast (surprisingly fast in fact). They have to, we don't buy them anymore and everyone is reducing their oil consumption: something like -20% for car sell and -10% for fuel consumption (impressive also). We can't drive fast anymore, therefore, we buy simpler, slower cars. Give me a Porsche and I'll drive between 180-200 miles/hr. I can't, then, I don't buy it (still I love that car, and their SUV is gorgeous).

Funny, that the smallest car around my place is a chevy (except for a few japanese ones).

By the way I have heard that gasoline price in U.S. is currently about 4$ (may be more) a gallon. If that is true, it means that ours is no more or even less expensive than yours. Think of it, we had about a 20-30% increase over the last 7-8 years, U.S. had live through a 100% increase in the same time (about 300-400% over the past 15 years). Bad time for american cars. Americans will be thinking about it.

One last thing, How is it to live in the Newest Socialist Country (with all that state money sent into banks) Don't you fear of being renamed Socialist Union of Northern America (S.U.N.A.)

4 dollars a gallon is roughly 1/3 of the price of diesel and gas up here in Norway, -we pay app. 3 dollars pr litre of gas or diesel.

We could probably pump it ashore and sell it for 50 cent a litreand still make tons of dough - but the enviroment/green taxes etc drive the prices up.

Taxing fuel consumption is the wealthy nations is the way to go unless you want overconsumption .

[Mohoender]

4 dollars a gallon is roughly 1/3 of the price of diesel and gas up here in Norway, -we pay app. 3 dollars pr litre of gas or diesel.

We could probably pump it ashore and sell it for 50 cent a litreand still make tons of dough - but the enviroment/green taxes etc drive the prices up.

Taxing fuel consumption is the wealthy nations is the way to go unless you want overconsumption .

Didn't know that about Norway. I have to take it into account if I want to visit (actually I might not visit, then). The price here is about 1$/liter for gasoline and 90 cents for diesel (counting the exchange rate of course). If prices go up to 3$/a liter, I'll buy a horse. I might be wrong with the exchange estimate then.

That gives me an idea of what our future might be. I'll be dreaming about guillotines again. Time for a free shaving ("on rase gratis") .

[headquarters]

Didn't know that about Norway. I have to take it into account if I want to visit (actually I might not visit, then). The price here is about 1$/liter for gasoline and 90 cents for diesel (counting the exchange rate of course). If prices go up to 3$/a liter, I'll buy a horse. I might be wrong with the exchange estimate then.

That gives me an idea of what our future might be. I'll be dreaming about guillotines again. Time for a free shaving ("on rase gratis") .

yep thats app 14 Norwegian or ca 3 us dollars or ca 1,75 euros pr litre of fuel

a little cheaper for truckers that can buy on a special business quota.

[jester]

Ah, here are some things to consider guys.

1.) America has been a car culture since we burst onto the world scene. Then we were the largest producer for fuel, even for export. Then again that was just comming out of a time when gasoline was a useless waste product. But, we have been a car culture for about 100 years at this point. So, how do we change something that has been so deeply engrained in our culture over night

2.) As a resule of the above, we do not have a large reliable mass transit in many areas, especialy west of the Missississippi, so basicaly half the country is without a good, working system. They had one in the metro Southern California area prior to the 1960s, but they got rid of it, because of the car culture. But, it would not have kept up with demand today and now we are caught in a lurch and now scrambling to make stop gap rail systems localy. Remember, even passenger cross country travel by rail is not everywhere. AMTRAK a private concern that is funded by the government just so this country does have a passenger rail system has actualy reduced the routes it travels and the number of stops at many of the routes it maintains. And their buisness has been on the upswing due to the high cost and terrible treatment the airlines have managed to do. Simply put, we have a inadeuqate local or national rail system for passenger service and such has been the case since my father was a boy.

As an aside, this could be an interesting thing in the T2K world with the shuttling of troops around the nation. Sending them from the midwest to the West Coast where they would sail by ship to the Asian or Alaskan front, or from California to Europe.

3.) We are a pretty large country. And without a reliable or far reaching mass transit what is the solution

Those are just some of the things.

As for the cost of fuel, it was about $1.50 and sometimes less than 1.00.

About a year ago, I recall filling up my gas tank the evening before my last surgery, fuel was 1.90, within a few weeks it jumped to 2.50, and kept climbing, 3.00, 3.50, then iit broke 4.00 and within what four months ago peaked at 4.80, some places it had broken the 5.00 a gallon mark. And now it is in the 2.50 range. But a jump from the 1.90 to 5.00 mark is an increase of 150% in a year. That is beyond the pale, and can an economy, especialy one that is geared around the internal combustion engine take a hit like that, and a price increase in that short of time without negative consequences

Just some thoughts.

[Mohoender]

Jest

I agree with all your thoughts. Europe will have some of the same problem when going to the countryside as we got rid of the local train in the 60's and 70's (with a few exceptions).

I have heard many Americans recently saying that they were driving less (your gas consumption proves it) so keep up. Personnaly, my point is not to get rid of cars but to have the car business working a little bit more in everyones interest (their own included). I'm not really interested in electric cars and don't think they are a solution (unless you want a world full of used batteries we cannot get rid of). At least we won't have to fear from global warming, we will simply have to deal with acid rains...

However, using some waste sounds as an idea to develop and using less oil to power a car sound definitely as a good one (already well under way). No reason to change your way of life then.

[jester]

Jest

I agree with all your thoughts. Europe will have some of the same problem when going to the countryside as we got rid of the local train in the 60's and 70's (with a few exceptions).

I have heard many Americans recently saying that they were driving less (your gas consumption proves it) so keep up. Personnaly, my point is not to get rid of cars but to have the car business working a little bit more in everyones interest (their own included). I'm not really interested in electric cars and don't think they are a solution (unless you want a world full of used batteries we cannot get rid of). At least we won't have to fear from global warming, we will simply have to deal with acid rains...

However, using some waste sounds as an idea to develop and using less oil to power a car sound definitely as a good one (already well under way). No reason to change your way of life then.

Sh, but it does need to change, the mindset, and yes that includes the auto industry. Until they change and come up with a product that they are really behind then the status quo will remain the same.

As for the whole battery idea, I totaly agree, that is what people do not think of when they talk of the alternative electric vehicles. The batteries need to be replaced every six or so years, then what does one do with them

[Nowhere Man 1966]

Jeep and Ford are working on a diesel model, they have been talking about it for a year, a diesel SUV.

Volkswagen did make several diesel models,

A Jetta, one of their little pickups, the Golf

Audi made a diesel

BMW and Mercedes

Nissan Sentra had a couple models

Even a little Mitsubishi pickup had a diesel model

Those are the ones off the top of my head.

And now with the alternative energy comming up, they are working on several diesel passenger cars, light trucks and SUVs, then again they may just be doing it for public relations.

However, in California, they made it illegal to sell new diesel cars here, although you can bring in used ones. Go figure. What a joke, yes they belch out smoke, but that is just look, diesel engines burn almost 90% of the fuel, whereas gas engines burn about 1/3 of the fuel, so which one polutes more One you just don't see it which in my view makes it worse.

Hmmm, I did look in a few repair manuals and Ford did make a few diesels in the 1980's and 1990's as well, I think they were mostly small pickups like the Ranger.

Chuck M.