Announcement from Free League Publishing

[Olefin]

I see it a little differently. I'd say it's about introducing a whole new generation of gamers to T2K. If part of that entails some tweaks and changes along the way I don't have a problem with that. If you want to stay as true as you can to the spirit of the [original] game why don't you just carry on playing the original game


What, a superb set of character generation rules (best I've seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. I'd love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)


Pretty sure this has already been stated, but all we've seen so far are three sample pages. No one has said that those are going to be the only vehicle choices. Give the people a chance.


You've been fairly scathing of some of the professionally produced works before - Howling Wilderness springs immediately to mind. I'm sure we've both seen amateur work that's better than the professional product. Your East Africa sourcebook started out as an amateur effort did it not Are you saying that its quality somehow improved when it became part of 2.2 canon You said upthread that you preferred my (amateur and most certainly non canonical) Alternative Survivor's Guide to the UK to the professionally published one.

Some of the comments I've seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didn't mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Let's give Free League a chance, yeah

actually my final version was a lot more polished than the original fan canon version - thats because I knew it was going to be official canon and I went thru it and did a lot of improvements to the original version - let alone making damn sure I wouldnt get sued for the pictures

And I never said Howling Wilderness wasnt well written - I said that it killing off basically most of the remaining US population with an uber drought that had no relation to reality was what I didnt support - that and having the US bring home 30000 plus soldiers and at most using 2000 or so of them and the US military made no effort to recruit new troops (when joining the Army is the best way to get fed after all) were not smart plot points

It was well written - it just had major plot issues and continuity errors - and you could see it was a direct "oh well we have to kill the US off enough to make 2300AD plausible" effort - but lets not jump the thread with yet another long winded Howling Wilderness debate shall we

And lets be clear - attracting a new fan base is great but not at the cost of pissing off your old one - go ask Coca Cola how well new Coke worked for them

[Raellus]

Slow and Steady Wins the Race

The biggest concerns I have is that they really put some thought into the timeline, the vehicles and weapons and the need for follow up releases. I would rather see it delayed a month or two and get it really polished then rush it out too fast. And I hope they know it needs to be fully supported by them and with official releases. I know how long we have waited for this and that frankly the game has been in the Dead Games pile way too long.

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021), and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

[comped]

FL has a year to complete the base game (IIRC, the release date is currently Summer, 2021, and a good track record (Tales from the Loop, Alien) so I wouldn't worry too much about getting a shoddy rush job. IIRC, the base game will include at least one campaign scenario (EfK redux) and a couple of mini-adventures (unlocked stretch-goal content) so there'll be enough to keep the new gamer occupied for a bit.

Yeah, hopefully they have a module or two ready to print/ship within a year of the product launch, but if Free League is in it for the long haul, then they don't want to shoot their wad too soon. D&D 5e has released an adventure module or setting book every few months since the base game was introduced and this has apparently been a very successful/lucrative strategy for the company. If you release a ton of stuff right away, your short-term profits might be greater, but interest will wane as soon as you've run out of fresh content, and long-term profits will almost certainly suffer. It's a marathon, not a sprint.

My personal issue with that isn't waiting a few month, it's the outright admission that there's years to wait before proper sourcebooks after release. Even if I've seen things in their previous products that make me concerned about their ability to make v4 a success, I'd still prefer new material (or the chance to get it, even fan-made) over none. Wait too long and the fan-base that has backed the core book to the tune of 3 million SEK, might not be there to buy them. At least for specifically fans of the publisher over the setting.

[Raellus]

Spitballing

My personal issue with that isn't waiting a few month, it's the outright admission that there's years to wait before proper sourcebooks after release. Even if I've seen things in their previous products that make me concerned about their ability to make v4 a success, I'd still prefer new material (or the chance to get it, even fan-made) over none. Wait too long and the fan-base that has backed the core book to the tune of 3 million SEK, might not be there to buy them. At least for specifically fans of the publisher over the setting.

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed

[Olefin]

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed

No he made it quite clear - at least a couple of year before sourcebooks on any other areas in the world

[Rainbow Six]

That's a valid concern. Hopefully, Tomas was using "years" as an idiom meaning "not right away" and not speaking literally.

My understanding is that the first adventure modules will be set in Poland and Sweden, but designed so that they could be dropped into other locations as well. Perhaps the assumption is that fans will be occupied with Poland and/or Sweden adventures for a while while sourcebooks for other regions are developed

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

[Tegyrius]

Because, otherwise, you know, IGNORE LIST.

Doesn't that feature just enhance your enjoyment of this forum like nothing else short of bourbon I may need to use it a little more than I currently do.

Too bad it doesn't work on quotes.

What, a superb set of character generation rules (best Ive seen in any version), a stand out gear list and different levels of crunchiness dependent on taste And let's not forget the advantages / disadvantages table - that was pure genius. Id love a repeat of that. Sure, the timeline had its weaknesses, but timeline can easily be replaced, rules not so much (I ran a game using V1 timeline and 2013 rules - worked a treat)

o7

Some of the comments Ive seen about the new version kind of remind me of when 2013 was a new thing and some people just wanted it to fail regardless because it was something new and / or it didnt mesh with their established view of what T2K should be. I also see a fair bit of bashing before anything substantial has been published (e.g. criticising the vehicle choices based on a three page sample which specifically states that some of the text is placeholder).

Lets give Free League a chance, yeah

I'll refer back to my previous comments about parts of this fan base just not wanting anything new because... reasons.

Back when the 93GS forum was running, we had one dude on there who legit wanted 2013 to fail because no one working on it was old enough to have served in West Germany in the '80s. That was his whole issue... as if spending a year staring at the Fulda Gap was a requirement to be a credible game designer in this genre.

- C.

[Raellus]

I Tried

It's a pity Tomas hasn't registered here and engaged directly with everyone. At the moment what we're getting is second hand.

I sent him an invitation, via e-mail, a few weeks ago.

-

[StainlessSteelCynic]

In general, we older gamers are going to have to deal with the fact that many games being made these days are not pitched at us - we are not the target audience anymore.
I think this is the same for Free League's games, with the rules system they use, we are not the target audience. Sure if they get some of us, they're happy, we're happy but they are aiming the game at people who have a different attitude towards gaming and the harsh reality is that many of those gamers are from the younger age brackets.

As I've said, I want to see the material they produce for this 4th edition but I have no love for the rules system and after looking at it more closely, I don't believe I will ever run it and I'm unlikely to be a player in a game using those rules (for the same reason that I refuse invites for 4th edition D&D - now those are some rules I actually hate)
While I understand what some people are getting at, an appeal for all of us to support the kickstarter regardless of what our personal interests or feelings are, is actually pretty damned insulting. I should support this version of the game even though I don't want to play it, just because somebody else thinks it's a good idea

This is the same as telling me I should like a particular brand of clothing just because my friends do, or flavour of icecream, or type of beer or choice of vacation spot, just because someone else likes it/wants it/owns it/etc. etc. For me, these are things I regard as my own likes/dislikes, they're personal, they're subjective. So I will support kickstarters that I have my own personal interest in, but I feel no obligation to support one just because someone else wants it. Whether I support this kickstarter is entirely my decision, pleas to support it "just because" are actually making me less interested, I do want some of this new material but I don't need it so I'm happy to wait for a while and get more information before deciding to support (or not) this version of the game.

[Targan]

Fan-made content can be every bit as good as official publications, but unless there's heavy curating it's going to come down to the culture of the community for any given game. Many here will know I'm a Harnmaster guy, and that community is a prime example of the quality of fan-made content being, on average, top-notch. The T2K community has a some of that too, I'd use our own Paul Mulcahey as a paragon example. It feels a bit weird going on the defence of the new edition like this, but I wouldn't assume that the general quality of fan-made content for the new edition will be "amateur hour".

[cawest]

right now i am going to pass on this. i might pick it up at a FLGS. i wish they would put some of the timeline up in the kickstarter. if they did that i might be more inclined to support. not getting a new book for a year or more that does not help me move over to the support column. i did look up other products from this company to use as a guide line. They don't seem to be in the support long term kind of company.

[swaghauler]

Well, I've reviewed Mutant: Year Zero, and I see it as a "modernized Shadowrun." I'll abstain from the Twilight2000 Kickstarter, but will most likely buy the game when I can get it in print. Like TW2K13, I'll mine it for cool game mechanics and setting info.

[Raellus]

If All of Your Friends Were Jumping Off a Bridge...

While I understand what some people are getting at, an appeal for all of us to support the kickstarter regardless of what our personal interests or feelings are, is actually pretty damned insulting. I should support this version of the game even though I don't want to play it, just because somebody else thinks it's a good idea

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come across as pushy, or generate peer pressure of any kind. Whether or not to support any given Kickstarter is a personal decision.

-

[Jason Weiser]

Gents,
Not speaking as a mod here, as the last thing I am going to do is use that status to tell ANYONE how to play their Twilight:2000.

Look, I am with the folks who say "setting is what makes T2K." It does. Like it or not. I've run v1 with GURPS, Savage Worlds, and v2.2 rules (which happens to be my fave), but Spartan has a point, younger gamers aren't going to do heavy math (hell, I have trouble with heavy math, LDs are a bitch).

But, and this is my own Kentucky windage. Let's wait and see. I want to see if I can get Chris Lites or Tomas himself down here to speak to a lot of this. I IMed Chris this AM and asked him if FL was accepting fan content for earlier editions. If this is the case, then us grognards might still have a playground of sorts

Matter of fact, I want to remind some folks of this. Back a few years ago, Battletech had two games out. One was the Classic Crunchy Battletech of 2D6 80s hair metal glory, the other, was simplified clickytech. Did we old timers love clickytech Nope. But a curious thing happened We had more than a few Clickytech players make the leap into Crunchy Battletech, and more than a few have stayed. I think, and this is just my own opinion We treat the simpler rules from V4 like this. Think of it as a zombie-free PA gateway drug for all the kids playing Team Yankee: "So, kids, wanna game out what happens after someone pops a nuke or three"

Yeah, they may scoff and say "OK, Boomer." But, they may not. Let's get a Q and A with Chris and/or Tomas started. We're the institutional knowledge of thirty years of T2K. We've spilled ink, drawn maps, painted miniatures, and done everything in between to get this ol' girl off the ground. I won't tell you to back the kickstarter or not, it's your money. But what I will tell you Open a dialogue. The worst they can tell you is "No, we don't wanna hear from the likes of you." In that case Play it your way anyhow, it's not like they can send the fun police!

[Legbreaker]

Most of you know I have some strong opinions, well thought out and researched long before I say much about them. I'm also open to having my mind changed.
I've seen the draft material (which is almost everything they've already produced) and of course have some VERY strong opinions of it that I really wish I was allowed to share. That knowledge will change minds. All I can publicly state, which I have also said elsewhere, is that some will hate this version and some will love it. Unfortunately I don't see much room for middle ground.

My suggestion If you have any doubts whatsoever, sit back and wait. If you're keen on supporting based on what's publicly available, then do that. Not much point trying to force your ideas on others is there Isn't that what's wrong with the world lately

Will I support the kickstarter I've thought long and hard about that question too and feel that answering it will probably give away more than I should.

DAMN it's HARD to be restrained about something I'm so passionate about!