v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[mpipes]

Not to mention the water isn't deep enough where they've put it, and it's well within range of shore fire from a very hostile populace.
The stupid burns.
Not to mention the ship they've chosen didn't even get it's crew until a few months earlier - nowhere near enough time for everyone to learn their jobs properly and start acting as an actual team.
Oh, and then there's that little fact that the Baltic Sea is basically the Soviets playground, ringed on the east and south with loads of naval facilities and shore based aircraft that would just LOVE to have a go at sinking a US carrier.
Shall we talk about reinforcements now How easy would it be to block any NATO ships with a few sea mines and a diesel powered sub or two....
Did I mention how stupid the idea is
...and then you find out that originally FL were going to have the carrier totally undamaged and in 100% fighting condition, yet still without all it's supporting ships...
How stupid would you have to be as a commander to think putting an untested capital ship in the middle of a Soviet kill zone would somehow be a good thing

It is just silly. Which makes one wonder exactly what "military consultants" did they use No one, and I mean NO ONE, that has any real expertise in military capabilities of the military forces at issue would dream of a US supercarrier in the Baltic Sea. Now, it is OK to go against military orthodoxy to make a good story, but that needs to be set up in a realistic manner, such as supporting a MEU performing amphibious ops. However, as written a US nuclear carrier in the Baltic is ridiculous. The fact that there are other things that are just as ridiculous tells you just how amateurish FL's efforts truly are in coming up with a believable background. As much as I cringe over elements of T2K's GDW written background, overall it makes enough sense to be believable. FL's effort wildly misses that mark on both the background and the mechanics. While the mechanics have sorta simplistic, "beer and pretzel" feel to them, I find them horribly unintuitive and clunky. V1 and V2.2 frankly look like elegant genius in comparison to me. The best I can say about FL's Alpha is that it gives me a far better appreciation at just how good GDW's game mechanics were.

Which brings me back to the burning question I still have. Exactly what "military consultant" did they use Whoever they used must be a fake, because what they present as background wildly fails to match up with any scenario for a NATO conflict envisioned by either NATO or PACT military theorists - it just does not. I just cannot see anyone familiar with NATO, PACT, or Soviet doctrine and plans (or even a somewhat knowledgeable wargamer for crying out loud) signing off on what was presented. Even the weapon ratings seem horribly whacked out to me. You'ld think that FL's weapon ratings at least looked realistic, but I don't see those as even being accurate at this point.

[pansarskott]

And with all that US airpower (and anti-aircraft missiles from ships!) in the Baltic Sea, the Soviets still manage to do airborne landings north of Stockholm.

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Which brings me back to the burning question I still have. Exactly what "military consultant" did they use Whoever they used must be a fake, because what they present as background wildly fails to match up with any scenario for a NATO conflict envisioned by either NATO or PACT military theorists - it just does not. I just cannot see anyone familiar with NATO, PACT, or Soviet doctrine and plans (or even a somewhat knowledgeable wargamer for crying out loud) signing off on what was presented. Even the weapon ratings seem horribly whacked out to me. You'ld think that FL's weapon ratings at least looked realistic, but I don't see those as even being accurate at this point.

It seems they didn't have many. There is one American who was listed as a military consultant and he apparently spent time in the US Army (I seem to recall something about being Airborne or something) however he was low rank and it seems very obvious that he has no understanding of military logistics.
Couple that with the fact that the lead designer from Free League did actually serve in the Swedish military as a conscript but it seems he was in intelligence or another support service rather than a combat arm. And again, he demonstrates a complete lack of understanding when it comes to military logistics.

[Legbreaker]

It's only rumour the lead was even a conscript. I can't find any indication they had ANY military experience beyond working as a journalist in the west bank area.
Guess how all their articles (that I could find) are written....

[mpipes]

How stupid would you have to be as a commander to think putting an untested capital ship in the middle of a Soviet kill zone would somehow be a good thing

Just think of the glee of all those Tu-22M Backfire crews!!! A US supercarrier in the Baltic all by its lonesome!! FL might as well have put a Typhoon boomer into the Great Lakes!!! SHUDDER!!!

[pansarskott]

Panorama pic of where USS Harry S. Truman is supposed to be anchored. The sailing ship to the left is 70 m long (water line) 500 meters away and the cruise ship to the right is probably about 200 m long.


But it would be cool in Mutant. A bit like the Statue of Liberty in Planet of the Apes, or the crashed Star Destroyers in the recent Star Wars movies. But in a game that's supposed to be based in reality Not so cool.

[Legbreaker]

...and as mentioned, EASILY within range of all sorts of man portable weapons.
Only place I can think of that would be worse, is a Pact harbour.

[Lurken]

...and as mentioned, EASILY within range of all sorts of man portable weapons.
Only place I can think of that would be worse, is a Pact harbour.

Yet, to FLs credit, atleast they stated that Stockholm is held by a a mixed force of Swedes and Americans. But how the hell were they able to slow the Soviets down, being cut off and beong close to Soviet airfields, while UK rolled over and died

[StainlessSteelCynic]

Unfortunately the more exposure I get to FL's reboot of T2k, the more I think they are doing a number of things because they think it would be "cool" in a game.
That panorama view of Stockholm harbour linked by pansarskott shows the utter unbelievability of having the Harry S. Truman in those waters. Only the captain of the Costa Concordia would think it's a good idea to get so close to shore, and we know how that went...

[pansarskott]

Close to shore I'll show you close to shore!

Oxdjupet (pics) is a narrow strait in the sea lane into Stockholm. There's a 19th century fortress there.
The ferries/cruise lines to land and Finland pass though it everyday. The ship in the pic is 28 meter wide (probably max width, lenght 171 m). A Nimitz-class carrier is 40 m wide at the water line, 77 m wide max. 317 m long at WL.

[Legbreaker]

The more I look at it, the more utterly insane it is for any military captain to even consider sailing through the approaches to Stockholm, let alone anchor close to the city.
We're talking upwards of 100km of sailing, almost every single step of it within range of shoulder fired AT weaponry!
And I'm not even talking very sophisticated, modern systems either, RPG-7's and the like!
Imagine what you could do with a couple of 105 tank guns or the like, or a small battery of 81mm mortars and delayed fuses.
It's total and utter MADNESS!!!

[pansarskott]

On the upper left side of that map, just east of the road, is Arlanda airport. Sweden's largest airport. You can see it as a pale splotch. Or use Google maps.

A large airborne force parachutes north of Stockholm, and Arlanda airport quickly falls to Soviet control.

It's not unreasonable to assume that the roro-harbour Kapellsk$r (east of Norrt$lje in upper right, where the road ends ) is under Soviet control

Soviet naval ships enter the Stockholm archipelago, where they face both Swedish and American vessels in combat.

The Swedish navy have ships that have been built for littoral combat. I don't think the ships in a carrier group are suited for that. The map give you an idea of the water/land ratio in the archipelago.


There is a sea lane that goes 'straight' east, north of "V$rmd NV' on the map. It still has to pass the Oxdjupet strait.

[Raellus]

Redirect

This discussion has veered away from v4 rules and mechanics. Here's a thread already dedicated to Sweden in T2k.

https://forum.juhlin.com/showthread.phpp=86256#post86256

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[raketenjagdpanzer]

"No one, and I mean NO ONE, that has any real expertise in military capabilities of the military forces at issue would dream of a US supercarrier in the Baltic Sea."

This is getting to 2013's level of stupid, with their "French nuclear subs sailing up the Rhine to get close enough to nuke Russian" horse shit.

[Raellus]

Please tone it down. At least one person who worked on 2013 is an active member here and, who knows, someone involved with v4 could be lurking too. We can not like things without resorting insults and name-calling.

Also, this thread is for rules and mechanics discussion. I'll unlock the v4 thread for general discussion, but if there's insults and name-calling again over there, it'll go back into lockdown.

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