v4 Rules & Mechanics Discussion

[swaghauler]

Not mine, but from the "Twilight:2000 solo" blog https://twilight2000solo.blogspot.co...ding-home.html

"House Rule - Successes and ammo usage: When you roll more than one success in ranged combat, each additional success after the first can be used to reduce the amount of ammunition expended. For each success sacrificed, the amount expended can be reduced by half (round down, minimum of 1). Successes used in this manner cannot be used to cause critical hits. All successes may be used, regardless of source (Ability, Skill or Ammo die)."

As yet, I have not played the v4 rules yet, only read them lightly and much commentary here and on FB. I am aware that ammo usage is a point of contention. It seems to me that the designers' intent is that "you keep pulling the trigger until the target falls down or is lost somehow", which rubs a lot of players the wrong way. Some part of that resistance is a loss of player agency, as it strips away the player's control over how many shots to fire.

The above sounds like a compromise-- character skill and luck contribute to keeping down ammo usage. It does seem heavily reliant on luck, though.

Thoughts

I'd play it where you record and track each round you fire. The AMMO DIE is obviously taking care of burst fire but for a semi-automatic or pump/lever gun, I might allow the character to "push" any failed ammo dice for rolling a success. Each "pushed" die would then roll for additional rounds of ammo expended and I would reduce THOSE ROUNDS ROLLED by the number of successes.

[swaghauler]

It seems to me that looking for supplies in the Free League reboot seems a bit too difficult.
If I understand it correctly, each hex is 10 kilometres but only one person can forage or hunt or scrounge or fish in a hex at a time.
The implication is that if others want to do so at the same time, then they need to wander off to another hex so that the characters end up about 10 klicks apart from each other - a profoundly stupid idea when you have hostile forces potentially in the vicinity.

Upon a success, you find one ration of food and I think you can only score up to two success. Living off the land seems to be so damned difficult I can't imagine anyone with real experience of being in the wilderness would find this game satisfying or enjoyable

I didn't really like the Year Zero rules to begin with and if anything, the rules they are hashing together for their reboot of T2k reinforces my bias against Year Zero rules.

This sounds like a direct lift from MUTANT:YEAR ZERO. The nearly universal houserule is to reset the hex size from 10Km to 1Km and drop the success limits. I still have issues with MUTANT... BUT I haven't played it yet. Still, it's close enough to SHADOWRUN that it all looks familiar to me (as a dice pool system).

[Raellus]

Better Late

Received an e-mail informing backers that the Beta has been delayed to continue revising background and rules. I choose to look at this as a positive development.

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[Legbreaker]

Meanwhile, there has been zero observable work done on the documents since the kickstarter.
Now tell me they're working hard on producing a good product and have listened to feedback.

[Raellus]

Pour Grasse

Now tell me they're working hard on producing a good product and have listened to feedback.

I can't tell you what I don't know. Do you know something that the rest of us do not

Meanwhile, there has been zero observable work done on the documents since the kickstarter.

What is the above comment in reference to AFAIK, no one outside the project team is able to view changes to the alpha as they are made. It's not a Google Doc.

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[Legbreaker]

It's not a Google Doc.
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Yes, it is actually and a handful of people can see it.

[Tegyrius]

Did that handful of people sign nondisclosure agreements If so, those people might want to review their NDAs to ensure they arent violating them by discussing the status of the development and revision process without authorization from the line developer.

- C.

[Raellus]

Outsider Info

Yes, it is actually and a handful of people can see it.

I suppose it's possible that the dev's are lying to the backers, and that no significant work has been or is being done on the project.

Is it not more likely that one of the current/active dev's simply made a copy of the Google Doc and shared it with only other current/active dev's (who presumably abide by NDA's), and that you are no longer privy to the work

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[Legbreaker]

Did that handful of people sign nondisclosure agreements If so, those people might want to review their NDAs to ensure they arent violating them by discussing the status of the development and revision process without authorization from the line developer.

I wrote it. I know exactly what it says and what my limitations are. I assure you and everyone else, I am not breaching it.

I suppose it's possible that the dev's are lying to the backers, and that no significant work has been or is being done on the project.

Is it not more likely that one of the current/active dev's simply made a copy of the Google Doc and shared it with only other current/active dev's (who presumably abide by NDA's), and that you are no longer privy to the work

I am not the only one seeing exactly the same thing.
Or is that not seeing
Time will tell of course, but thus far, it appears nothing has happened. Meanwhile FL has obtained another title and has commenced work on it. They're not a big company so I'm not sure how much attention they can be putting on two different titles at the same time....

[Olefin]

Has anyone talked to Frank Frey to see how far along he is on the V4 Madonna That might be a window in what is going on with the 4th edition that has nothing to do with what is or isnt going on with the Beta. Plus a new version of the Madonna sounds great to me

[mpipes]

After they put out that utterly non-sensical and illogical Alpha reveal, I have little faith. I think a half wit 7th grade wargamer - like me in the day - could have done better. It was comically bad in my opinion and indicates an unprofessional and biased mind set - not to mention anti-semantic - that marks the entire project as hopelessly tainted and inevitably doomed.

They really do need to fire at least one person from the project and have a MASSIVE rewrite of the background that is not so pro-Soviet in slant not to mention anti-NATO. And really, DOES ANYONE think any NATO/Euro-Soviet war would EVER center on neutral Sweden!!!

[Legbreaker]

They really do need to fire at least one person from the project and have a MASSIVE rewrite of the background that is not so pro-Soviet in slant not to mention anti-NATO.

Not going to happen. It's the company's CEO who wrote it.

[mpipes]

Not going to happen. It's the company's CEO who wrote it.

Alas, I am aware. That was meant more as a resigned acceptance that it was something that should happen but won't. Hope someone likes going broke on what I would think was a major investment intended to take the company to the next level.

But hey, if you are that clueless as to what you are drafting, maybe you deserve whatever comes back at you. Just disappointing considering IMHO what they said was coming compared to what showed up.

[Olefin]

Alas, I am aware. That was meant more as a resigned acceptance that it was something that should happen but won't. Hope someone likes going broke on what I would think was a major investment intended to take the company to the next level.

But hey, if you are that clueless as to what you are drafting, maybe you deserve whatever comes back at you. Just disappointing considering IMHO what they said was coming compared to what showed up.

I agree completely with you - its why I asked for my money back

[kcdusk]

Apologies for being off topic. But this thread got me looking at Modern War by Zozer games. Any comments from people that have it/used it