Morrow Aviation Assets

[ArmySGT.]

Actually I like the idea of the State of Texas controlling the CAF resources better, along with whatever was left of the US military air assets in Texas.

They have some interesting plans that can fly long ranges to say the KFS.

The P-47N-5RE they have is an extreme long range bomber escort (3200 km range). It is more than capable of flying to the KFS on photo recon and back, from the center of Texas to the center of Kentucky is only 1566 Km.

Interesting addition to any KFS campaign out there.

Read PF-06 Operation Lone Star for the state of U.S. forces in and around Ft. Hood, Texas. Incursion by Cuban/Central American Soviet allies, and the state of oil production......

Own and get a Morrow Project communications satellite too while you are at it as an added bonus!

[nuke11]

Read PF-06 Operation Lone Star for the state of U.S. forces in and around Ft. Hood, Texas. Incursion by Cuban/Central American Soviet allies, and the state of oil production......

Own and get a Morrow Project communications satellite too while you are at it as an added bonus!

Yes I have 6 or 7 of it.

[ArmySGT.]

I'm for the MP having air assets, but not that much of it.

Hiding stuff around the country at the smaller airfields is easy to do, currently working on an MP Airbase for release later, but there are dozens and dozens of small air fields around the country that MPI can purchase and use to store air assets.

I'm leaning myself to 1 / 2 engine prop and small helicopters . Since we have the CH-47 and C-130 from Prime Base, we have to include them as well, but in limited numbers and very limited locations.

I really think the air assets are going to operate solely out of Prime Base and Regional bases. Simply because that is where the most Morrow Project support structure.

Conceivably, Select Teams of MARS could be in Bolt Holes and equipped with Air Ambulance and Rescue versions of common helos. They would need to immediately link with their Combined Group for atleast maintenance support.

[ArmySGT.]

, I still find ArmySgt's posts interesting and potentially useful.

[ArmySGT.]

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable

[kato13]

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable

I would think the newer missiles which are all-aspect would have a chance. If they can target heated guard towers (ala "Cardinal and the Kremlin") and smaller helicopters I think the heat output from a P-47 would be sufficient.

Also don't newer missiles look look for both heat and an absence or UV. This keeps them from targeting the sun IIRC.

[Jeff9650]

Another thought........

How much heat does a target aircraft have to give off for a heat seeker like the Stinger or Chapparal to actually lock on

Would KFS P-47Ds even be targetable

Oh heck yeah it would. Back when I was taking aviation maintenance at a 2 year college back in 1988, I talked with someone who had just left the navy and his last post was the USS Midway. Knowing that the Carrier was all Hornets, I asked about how sensitive the Sidewinders heat seeking warheads were. He told me that he was walking by a Hornet that was fitted out one day and he heard some strange noises coming from there. When he walked back, he heard the same noises again. On the third time back, he looked over and noticed the warhead seeker was following him, and with that, the vanes on the missile was adjusting themselves to target him. So if the sensor on a Sidewinder (which is a Chapparal, just renamed) can track a human, then it can track a P-47.

[stormlion1]

Oh heck yeah it would. Back when I was taking aviation maintenance at a 2 year college back in 1988, I talked with someone who had just left the navy and his last post was the USS Midway. Knowing that the Carrier was all Hornets, I asked about how sensitive the Sidewinders heat seeking warheads were. He told me that he was walking by a Hornet that was fitted out one day and he heard some strange noises coming from there. When he walked back, he heard the same noises again. On the third time back, he looked over and noticed the warhead seeker was following him, and with that, the vanes on the missile was adjusting themselves to target him. So if the sensor on a Sidewinder (which is a Chapparal, just renamed) can track a human, then it can track a P-47.

Which means it was armed and sitting on a grounded planes launch rack. Which is kind of scary when you think about it.

[ArmySGT.]

Yes I have 6 or 7 of it.

Morrow sats Wow......

[welsh]

Sorry, I am with Gamer on this. Sophisticated air assets on a large scale don't make a lot of sense in the Morrow world. Even an organization of a 10,000 people are not going to be able to field the capacity necessary to maintain that level of technology. If anything, the technology that you deal with might be superior to what you got frozen with, but its 150 years old and age wears stuff down.

Look, even rubber has a limited shelf life. The Morrow plan was to revive the project shortly after a nuclear war. On something as simple as tires, that would have significant damage. Even if you could make a rubber that could remain essentially inert for a few years or lift the weight off, the weight of the vehicle will likely cause the rubber to settle. 150 years and tires are flat. Even if you could "freeze" the tires in time, gravity will cause damage.

You rely on a technologically advanced system to sustain the project, it becomes illogical. It would consume too much resources when those resources need to go elsewhere. As mentioned by Gamer above- Morrow Project is not about local warlordism but about responding to a disaster and rebuilding society. The priorities or reconstruction would out weigh war fighting. In fact, the war fighting aspects are meant to serve only to protect the rebuilding effort- which is front and center.

I am not saying I don't see the "coolness" of it, but that's always been a problem with the Morrow project and, in a way, with the trend in doomsday prep in real life- a desire to "have stuff in an apocalyptic world." If that's your thing, go for it. It is your game.

But I would caution that the more the game bends realism for "coolness" it risks blundering away from good story telling and into some pretty significant silliness. All I am saying is that you have to keep it real. What kind of aircraft

Balloons, ok, A World War 1 tech bi-plane that flies one ethanol "moonshine" fuel, ok (that's what twilight 2000 engines ran on).

I would add that budgets matter here, especially in what goes into the bolt holes- how much does an F-5 cost I can understand putting the fusion reactor in the F-5, but then can you keep the supply chain for an F-5 as well as other types of vehicles that are more necessary to the mission Its interesting that the only real air asset is a 2 man scout helicopter.

The temptation to include stuff because its cool needs to be avoided. One might consider, if one were so predisposed, either older and simpler designs that are dual-use (and which might be armed). Put a mini-gun on that aging Dakota cargo plane One would also need simply aircraft that are sustainable under conditions of high scarcity.

Think of the before and after- Before- Morrow is operating in secrecy- so a company buys advanced fighter aircraft would draw attention. Billions spent on buying advanced warfare systems- would draw attention. Attention is not a good thing. Post-war- military scarcity and the break down of civilization- national industrial capacity was destroyed, neglected, irradiated or has simply rusted away. Things we take for granted are just not there. Most of your technological capacity ranges from stone age to mid 20th century at best. Higher levels require organization of social, technical and economic power that would be hard to imagine. Remember, this is a world that has broken down.

That material scarcity is not a bad thing for story telling. It means that game directors have to keep it real.

Consider the plot possibilities- Who has those air assets. The Ballooners, a small group of dare devil pilots flying alcohol fueled airplanes across the country- a form of air pirates What kind of network and resources do they use Are they owned by a government or independent

If there is high tech in the world, where did it come from And 150 years later, that tech is likely to be nothing like we have today. If a Kentucky Free State has more advanced aircraft- where did it get that tech from Did high technology survive in other parts of the world and are selling it American warlords, perhaps to put the Americans against each other so they can exploit or weaken the Americans for their own purposes Who are these outsiders Brazil, Singapore, a Japan that survived the war better than the Americans, a Mormon colony Did all parts of the world suffer the cataclysm the same Have some recovered faster than we have

All I am saying is the fetish for "cool stuff" risks undermining the stories you tell, and the strength of Morrow isn't the stuff but the story.

[ArmySGT.]

My point is

There what the Project was supposed to be on start, not what it is with Prime Base off line and faulty computer code sending random wake up codes 150 years to late.

The Project is of course about reconstruction. The reality is that it is a WAR that caused all the chaos that needs to be repaired and rebuilt from. There is no guarantee that the war is over five years after 19 November 1989. There isn't a guarantee that hostile forces are not occupying American soil at year five (there is and in more than one location). Further there isn't any indication that the Soviets are completely done with and cannot retaliate further.

That is why I continue to believe that the Project would have acquired F-5s for air superiority mission over Prime Base and critical Project assets like the (censored) in OP Desert Search.

Now, Are those going to be operable in year 150+ Well, I am not handing Prime Base or a Regional base over to the players, so I am not giving them F-5s. That is an asset for the PD to bring into play if the players have really messed up the B&B or Lonestar campaigns. Are they going to fly Well, V-150s do, all the ordnance in the bolt holes and caches does. F-5s cannot be more complex than HAAM suits, Science One, or a MARS one....... Hell that can't be more complex than a cryosleep chamber. If hand waving works for those I am going to allow it for F-5s and spare parts.

[stormlion1]

Getting the aircraft might not be a problem either. If one of the members of the CoT happens to have ties to the Aviation industry or the Arms Market The Project would be able to get a few aircraft and the munitions for them. I doubt they could get many, but they could get a few listed as scrapped or tested to destruction.

[dragoon500ly]

We have Autogyros, but only in TM1-1, no module uses them. so assign a half dozen or so to the regional bases for local air reconnaissance.

We have OH-6/CH-47 helos and C-130s only at Prime Base....an argument could be made that Prime Two would have the same air group so we are looking at 12 OH-6s, 4 CH-47s and 4 C-130s for the entire Project.

The only other planes that I would even consider would be a CV-2 Caribou for STOL and light cargo/passenger use, maybe one per Regional Command Base. Perhaps a U-1 Otter to assist the Caribou for team support, maybe 2 per RCB. The only other aircraft I would consider is a OV-10 Bronco, not only is it an armed COIN aircraft, it also has limited cargo/passenger capability as well as STOL capability.

SOoooo

for a Project we might have 60 Autogyros, 12 OH6s, 4 CH-47s, 4 C-130s, 10 Caribou, 20 Otters and 10 Broncos

Thoughts

[stormlion1]

What about resupply bases or regional bases Surely they would have some way of moving equipment/personnel if they had to. They wouldn't make Teams cross several hundred miles just to replace personnel or damaged gear. It would make more sense to have the capability to resupply them from a distance. I personally would use old Huey Helicopters for it. They have proven to be up to the task.

[welsh]

My point is

There what the Project was supposed to be on start, not what it is with Prime Base off line and faulty computer code sending random wake up codes 150 years to late.

The Project is of course about reconstruction. The reality is that it is a WAR that caused all the chaos that needs to be repaired and rebuilt from. There is no guarantee that the war is over five years after 19 November 1989. There isn't a guarantee that hostile forces are not occupying American soil at year five (there is and in more than one location). Further there isn't any indication that the Soviets are completely done with and cannot retaliate further.

To be honest, I agree with that thinking. There is no certainty that the war is over and that modern threats don't exist. I would also question how far the project anticipated the industrial-tech and the economic infrastructure that existed to maintain that capacity.

But at the end of the day, there is still a challenge. Having a significant air wing can be hugely expensive and the problem of secrecy remains. I can understand utilizing something like a commercial or private jet and make it duel use- a weaponized Leer jet perhaps, but buying and maintaining advanced fighter aircraft or attack aircraft would seem to be a huge challenge for what is essentially a private company.

While it is fair to say that there have been multinational corporations with military assets- such as Heritage Oil owning Executive Outcomes, even EO was limited in its use of a military arm- buying mostly old Russian Hind Helicopters for its operations in Africa. And EO was an unusual case and drew a lot of criticism. It is simply hard to purchase advanced military tech if you are a private company. IF you are going to have a company Morrow Industries acquiring advanced weapons like F5 aircraft, you need a story to justify or explain how that could happen Was Morrow working as a private military contractor, training militaries in South America in drug interdiction, and thus had reason to buy COIN aircraft for the war on drugs And yes, I think it fair to ask- well how did Morrow get its other military gear There is no easy answer.

I would also think that there is a leap between having a Morrow Project with an combat air wing, a transportation air-wing, and then the need for some organic air defense. Having air-defense is different from having an air force.

That is why I continue to believe that the Project would have acquired F-5s for air superiority mission over Prime Base and critical Project assets like the (censored) in OP Desert Search.

F5S aircraft are used by a number of foreign countries. But its an airplane that is getting pretty old too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_F-5

If Morrow Project follows the original timeline and the war happens in the 1980s, ok. More modern war and I would be worried that the F5s would get shot out of the air. Investing in an expensive plane that is unlikely to be competitive for its mission could be risky. Will you update it with a more advance fighter

Then there is the question of capacity again- if only countries fly the F5 and we compare them, is Morrow more like Singapore or like Kenya Probably more like Kenya in terms of spending capacity. An airforce like a small African country- ok, I can see that.

Now, Are those going to be operable in year 150+ Well, I am not handing Prime Base or a Regional base over to the players, so I am not giving them F-5s. That is an asset for the PD to bring into play if the players have really messed up the B&B or Lonestar campaigns. Are they going to fly Well, V-150s do, all the ordnance in the bolt holes and caches does. F-5s cannot be more complex than HAAM suits, Science One, or a MARS one....... Hell that can't be more complex than a cryosleep chamber. If hand waving works for those I am going to allow it for F-5s and spare parts.

I have to admit, I also find some of this high tech to be dicey, but you make a good point. In the end however, I have to go with the idea raised by stormlion- keep it simple and small. Tech in Morrow is problematic across the board as you need to develop your story so that the tech makes sense and adds to the story rather than deflects it or confuses it. The more you use, the more tenuous your story becomes.