OT: Putin's War in Ukraine

[Raellus]

I think it's more about driving civilians out of targeted settlements so that the artillery can level potential defensive positions, than efforts to break the will to fight of the Ukrainian populace. The demoralizing effect of random shelling and missile attacks is a "bonus", rather than the primary objective of said strikes. Do the Russians really care about civilian casualties Clearly not, but I think they're trying to maintain the facade that they do.

The Russians have a long institutional memory. They learned how difficult MOUT is 75 years ago during the battles for Berlin, Danzig, Konigsberg, etc. Their attempts at a decapitating "Thunder Run" during the first battle of Grozny and, again, during the Battle of Kiev, were costly, abject failures, so they've reverted back to just shelling cities into rubble before trying to seize territory.

"Light", preliminary bombardment prompts evacuations of civilians. Then the Soviets can go hard. Or maybe they just don't give a crap about civilian casualties, I don't know.

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[Trooper]

Aselsan is a Turkish manufacturer. They make an airburst round with tungsten pellets as the payload. NAMMO also manufactures ammo in 35x228mm, although I'm not sure where, given their multinational nature. And Rheinmetall makes some types of rounds in that caliber. I think Romarm in Romania also manufactures high explosive rounds (and training rounds), but not the more advanced rounds.

Nammo is marketing 35 mm ammo for Oerlikon. So far, they have only managed to sell training rounds to Turkey.

History goes something like this. In early 90s Finland bought seven Marksman SPAAGs. Finnish policy was during that time that Finland should have production capacity to all calibers we have in use.

Only weapons that used 35 mm Oerlikon rounds were sixteen Oerlikon GDF guns and those Marksman tanks. Anyway, Vihtavuori made one batch of 35 mm ammo and that didnt go too well. Oerlikon rounds are not easy to manufacture. Rounds should have small dispersion and high velocity. After some embarrassing incidents armed forces stopped using Finnish ammo and relied in Swiss quality.

Probably Vihtavuori (part of Nammo group) still have some capacity to manufacture 35 mm rounds, but probably it would be better that some oeinternational arms dealer just happens to find Swiss ammo for Gepard.

[swaghauler]

War Footage: Drone Strikes

These drone strikes are being done by the Ukrainian made 8-motor quadcopters that they assemble from kits. The "bombs" are plastic bodies (to reduce loaded weight) with fixed plastic fins (made from sheet plastic found in craft stores), with a metal nose cone and "percussion/striker" detonator. The bomb's payload is 1/2lb of explosive and 2lbs of fragmentation material (everything from gravel to small metal fragments). The smaller drones can carry one or two bombs but the larger one Ukraine has started to make is capable of carrying up to 6 bombs. The control range is a few kilometers and the controller is a STANDARD (ie commercially sold) controller.

https://youtu.be/XQ4HxpQQ3Sg

Swag

[kcdusk]

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot

Was it a one shot kill Or many

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russia-just-lots-its-most-advanced-operational-tank-in-ukraine

[swaghauler]

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot

Was it a one shot kill Or many

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.



https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ank-in-ukraine

According to YouTube, it was killed by one of the OLDEST weapons on the modern battlefield! The Ukrainian military hit it with a Carl Gustaf Recoilless Rifle!

[Vespers War]

Russian T-90 tank destroyed in Ukraine.


I'd love to know the story behind how this happened. Did the T90 rumble into view, & surprise an anti-tank crew who took an opportunistic shot

Or was it seen a few days ago, and a Ukraine crew stalked it through the woods, before the kill shot

Was it a one shot kill Or many

Did a soldier, or group of soldiers, have to act as bait

So many backstories that fit our T2K world, and would be interesting to know.



https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zon...ank-in-ukraine

Just to clarify, it was a surprise because it was the first known T-90M Proryv lost in Ukraine. Russia's lost at least 19 of the T-90A, which are an earlier variant (first ordered in 2005, while the Proryv was first delivered in 2020).

The best estimate of what happened that I've seen so far is that the Carl Gustaf shot hit one of the fuel tanks and started a fire in the rear of the tank, which spread until it set off the ammo carousel.

And here's where I note that Paul doesn't have the T-90M on his page, because of course I went to go check, and noticed the T-72B3 and T-72B3M are also not listed. (Also, the writeup on the T-90 implies the T-90A existed first and then the T-90S was a derived export version, when it's the other way around - the T-90S was sold to India in 2001, and then Russia bought the "export version" for themselves as T-90A in 2005).

[pmulcahy11b]

And here's where I note that Paul doesn't have the T-90M on his page, because of course I went to go check, and noticed the T-72B3 and T-72B3M are also not listed. (Also, the writeup on the T-90 implies the T-90A existed first and then the T-90S was a derived export version, when it's the other way around - the T-90S was sold to India in 2001, and then Russia bought the "export version" for themselves as T-90A in 2005).

I've been busy updating EV pages; I haven't been paying attention to other vehicles; I guess I need to upgrade at least some of Russian Tanks...and US tanks, and British tanks, and US APCs, and British APCs, and International APCs, and Russian APCs, and Russian LAVs...I could go on, but I'll give myself a panic attack.

[kcdusk]

Paul: the way the "best way to travel overland" thread is going, your best bet is to prioritise a whole page on horse stats!

[pmulcahy11b]

Paul: the way the "best way to travel overland" thread is going, your best bet is to prioritise a whole page on horse stats!

The way I do things is:
1) Updates, by category and alphabet, Right now, that's Wheeled EV
2) Stuff I want to do for fun
3) Corrections I receive in PM and email and forum
4) Requests

The last two may blend together, sometimes

[Vespers War]

I've been busy updating EV pages; I haven't been paying attention to other vehicles; I guess I need to upgrade at least some of Russian Tanks...and US tanks, and British tanks, and US APCs, and British APCs, and International APCs, and Russian APCs, and Russian LAVs...I could go on, but I'll give myself a panic attack.

Yeah, it's going to be a project without end since there are always odd updates being done, even excluding the introduction of entirely new vehicles. At least everything I noted wouldn't be in use in a tradition T2K scenario - the T-90M was first publicly shown in 2017, while the T-72B3 dates to 2010 and the T-72B3M to 2016.

And on the theme of odd updates, the Polish T-72M1R that were sent to Ukraine have been fitted with mounts for Kontakt-1 ERA, with the armor blocks being provided by Czech Republic. The M1R has a thermal imaging camera for the gunner, improved radios, a new fire control system, and a battlefield management system. As a quick and dirty stat-up, I'd just use the T-72M1 with Fire Control increased to +3, Thermal Imaging, and a second PKT. The gun mount isn't mentioned as receiving any upgrades, so Stabilization remains at Fair. The Kontakt-1 ERA would add 80 to AV against HE only to the front and sides, and doesn't protect against top-attack munitions or mines.

[Raellus]

Testicular Fortitude

It's hard to believe that any Ukrainian helicopters got in or out of there during the siege. IMHO, those aircrews deserve Ukraine's highest decoration for bravery.

Inside Ukraine's Daring Helicopter Missions Into Russian-Occupied Mariupol:

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/exclusive-details-of-ukraines-daring-helicopter-missions-into-russian-occupied-mariupol

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[Bestbrian]

The gear comes with a learning curve.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/06/world/europe/ukraine-advanced-weapons-training.html

[Raellus]

The gear comes with a learning curve.

Thanks for the link. I've long been wondering how the UAF has been keeping up with the profusion of donated weaponry (especially artillery and combat vehicles), and am concerned that a lot of this "new" gear will be rushed into the field before its crews know how to use it effectively. This concern has only grown with reports of Western AFVs and artillery arriving in Ukraine in increasing quantities. A week ago, it was reported that Norwegian M109s SPGs had arrived in Ukraine. A couple of days ago, the Russians posted video of a battery of said M109s being hit by rocket-deployed cluster munitions. That's a quick turnaround, with unfortunate results. It's one thing for the Ukrainians to employ systems with which they have familiarity and experience (like T-72 variants and Buka SAMs), but quite another when it's HIMARS and Leopard 2s (gracias, Espa+-a!)

I posted this link over in the Out of Mothballs thread already, but it's worth sharing here as well.

https://twitter.com/UAWeaponsref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1532282866293518336%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.militaryimages.net%2Fthreads%2Fukrainian-forces-2022.10408%2Fpage-10

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[ToughOmbres]

OT Ukraine

Earlier in the conflict the Russian Army seemed to have forgotten most of the lessons of World War II or even 1995 Grozny at least as far as Command and Control decisions.
This also seemed to apply to logistics-logistics stopped as many Red Army offensives as the Wehrmacht during World War II. Russian logistics seemed to be in really pitiful shape.
Fast forward to late June-the Russians seem to have rediscovered massive artillery pulverizing everything to perdition ala World War I or the Artillery divisions of World War II.
We'll see.

[kcdusk]

Russia version of the last submarine. Pun intended.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/russias-only-pump-jet-kilo-class-submarine-is-back-to-attack-ukraine